Left/Right vs Port/ Starboard

[BF Lake]

The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and green
(starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.

But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel. When fixed
guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns port and
starboard for guns lost all meaning.

But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing forward
when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right lubberly
language?

Regards,
Barry

[Raymond O'Hara]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?
In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and
green (starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.
But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel. When
fixed guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns
port and starboard for guns lost all meaning.
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing
forward when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right
lubberly language?
Regards,
Barry

it avoids stupid mistakes.

[Doug Houseman]

Post by Raymond O'Hara

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?
In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and
green (starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.
But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel. When
fixed guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns
port and starboard for guns lost all meaning.
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing
forward when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right
lubberly language?
Regards,
Barry

it avoids stupid mistakes.

Rudder orders are given in right and left, when you back a ship, the
rudder does not move the ship's course to starboard like it would if you
were going forward. At low speeds with some ships, you have to reverse
the direction of the rudder to get the ship to go the way you want it
too - yes for some ships at very low speeds you put on left hard rudder
to get the ship's bow to swing to a new course the you would normally
put on right rudder for.

Since port and starboard refer always to the side of the ship that is to
the right and the left of the bow, it is useful to use these terms when
talking about where you are on the ship and where things are in relation
to the ship - when you ask a sailor to do something on the ship, you
almost never ask them to do port and starboard, unless you are asking
them to go to a specific location on the ship. Right and left is in
relationship to the sailor, port and starboard is to the relationship of
the bow of the ship.

Have been a guest officer on Canadian, British, Swedish, Japanese, Thai,
Australian, and other english speaking naval vessels and having had the
conn on all of them, none of them that I had the conn on referred to
help orders as port and starboard.

A typical order (this is from memory - that is almost 30 years old) for
the helm would be "Right 5 degrees rudder" or "Come right to new course
Two Seven Zero" or "Come right, make your course One Eight Zero" or
"RIght full rudder, steady on new course three five nine"

These sorts of orders were universally understood on the bridges i was
on. I have just over 20,000 hours of Junior Officer of the Deck and
Officer of the Deck underway. I have over 2,000 underway replenishments
as JOOD or OOD during that time - I gave a lot of helm orders, and only
twice had a situation that left me tight after it was over.

Doug

[Neill McKay]

Post by Doug Houseman
Have been a guest officer on Canadian, British, Swedish, Japanese, Thai,
Australian, and other english speaking naval vessels and having had the
conn on all of them, none of them that I had the conn on referred to
help orders as port and starboard.
A typical order (this is from memory - that is almost 30 years old) for
the helm would be "Right 5 degrees rudder" or "Come right to new course
Two Seven Zero" or "Come right, make your course One Eight Zero" or
"RIght full rudder, steady on new course three five nine"
These sorts of orders were universally understood on the bridges i was
on.

I've no doubt that they would be understood in any English-speaking
ship, but none of your examples would normally be used in a Canadian
ship. "Starboard five" and "steer one eight zero" are examples of the
Canadian practice.

[BF Lake]

"Neill McKay" <***@not.my.address> wrote in message
news:neill.mckay-

Post by Neill McKay
I've no doubt that they would be understood in any English-speaking
ship, but none of your examples would normally be used in a Canadian
ship. "Starboard five" and "steer one eight zero" are examples of the
Canadian practice.

Doug also mentions "Back" which is another USNism. Maybe it goes back a
hundred years when helm orders were all reversed as though they were tiller
orders instead of rudder orders. Not sure how saying left/right would help
sort that out though.

The nearest RN equivalent order was on the radio show "Navy Lark" where the
OOW would say , "Left hand down a bit, right hand down a bit"

Regards,
Barry

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Doug Houseman
Have been a guest officer on Canadian, British, Swedish, Japanese, Thai,
Australian, and other english speaking naval vessels and having had the
conn on all of them, none of them that I had the conn on referred to
help orders as port and starboard.

You was also a base/harbour pilot ? it's the only explanation I can have
for your conning ships of at least six different & diverse navies.....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Raymond O'Hara

Post by BF Lake
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing
forward when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right
lubberly language?
Regards,
Barry

it avoids stupid mistakes.

whose is simply:

left rudder--> turn starboard (right)
right rudder ---> turn port (left)

when a ship turn starboard (right), the rudder actually goes left and
the hydrodynamics involved veer the prow toward starboard, turning the
ship in the (hopefully) desired direction.

Even in this days of very long range engagements, in the heat of action
is still critical to make the correct turn (for example, not few ships
has their CIWS aft)

On the gun numbering, I should note that in Italian Navy turrets, mounts
& guns when there was twin & triple turrets, the numbering reverse for
the guns/turrets facing aft; the for example, aboard the now gone
missile cruisers with VIII-76/62. the eight turrets was numbered:

Bow
^
1 2
3 4
6 5
8 6
-
stern

so, the left barrel from the pov behind the gun (when the weapons was
manned, and the old 76/62 was indeed manned) was always the first in the
counting sequence. But still I don't have idea of which was no. 6 and
no.8 12" gun in the Cavours & Dorias pre-modernization, no 3 turret not
having a definite on keel position; in many photos they are pointing
aft, and in many other photos are pointing forward.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[David Biddulph]

...

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by Raymond O'Hara
it avoids stupid mistakes.

left rudder--> turn starboard (right)
right rudder ---> turn port (left)
when a ship turn starboard (right), the rudder actually goes left and the
hydrodynamics involved veer the prow toward starboard, turning the ship in
the (hopefully) desired direction.

In which situations does the rudder moving to the left (to port) cause the
prow to move to starboard?
Or are you saying moving to the left if you look back towards the rudder,
i.e. moving the rudder to starboard?

In the craft to which I am accustomed (admittedly smaller than a warship),
the rudder moving to port causes the stern to move to starboard, and the
prow to move to port. Are things different in Italy?

[Vince]

Post by David Biddulph
...

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by Raymond O'Hara
it avoids stupid mistakes.

left rudder--> turn starboard (right)
right rudder ---> turn port (left)
when a ship turn starboard (right), the rudder actually goes left and the
hydrodynamics involved veer the prow toward starboard, turning the ship in
the (hopefully) desired direction.

In which situations does the rudder moving to the left (to port) cause the
prow to move to starboard?
Or are you saying moving to the left if you look back towards the rudder,
i.e. moving the rudder to starboard?
In the craft to which I am accustomed (admittedly smaller than a warship),
the rudder moving to port causes the stern to move to starboard, and the
prow to move to port. Are things different in Italy?

I think you are saying the same thing.

A ship always turns in the direction in which the "rudder" is moved
(assuming an unbalanced rudder)

However there is often confusion between tiller (helm) and rudder
orders, especially on sailboats. .


Vince

[Ed Medlin]

Post by David Biddulph
...

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by Raymond O'Hara
it avoids stupid mistakes.

left rudder--> turn starboard (right)
right rudder ---> turn port (left)
when a ship turn starboard (right), the rudder actually goes left and the
hydrodynamics involved veer the prow toward starboard, turning the ship
in the (hopefully) desired direction.

In which situations does the rudder moving to the left (to port) cause the
prow to move to starboard?
Or are you saying moving to the left if you look back towards the rudder,
i.e. moving the rudder to starboard?
In the craft to which I am accustomed (admittedly smaller than a warship),
the rudder moving to port causes the stern to move to starboard, and the
prow to move to port. Are things different in Italy?
--
David Biddulph

Rudder full left, starboard engine back will rotate the boat on axis (move
bow to starboard)....:-). We would reverse that (full right, port back) and
repeat to "walk" a craft into a slip at a dock. Kind of like "parallel
parking". Using low rpms on the engine the boat would only move slightly
astern. On older boats with a third, center engine, we could leave it at
forward idle and the boat would move almost directly to starboard with
little or no forward or rearward movement. With two screws, the opposite
engine sometimes would be left at forward idle to help compensate for the
back movement, using higher rpms for the maneuvering engine. Everything must
be adjusted for wind and current. Every craftmaster seemed to have his own
variations on how to do it, but the basic concept was the same. The command
"full right, starboard forward" would mean full right rudder, starboard
engine forward idle.

Ed

[Peter Granzeau]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:38:36 +0100, "dott.Piergiorgio"

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by Raymond O'Hara

Post by BF Lake
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing
forward when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right
lubberly language?
Regards,
Barry

it avoids stupid mistakes.

left rudder--> turn starboard (right)
right rudder ---> turn port (left)
when a ship turn starboard (right), the rudder actually goes left and
the hydrodynamics involved veer the prow toward starboard, turning the
ship in the (hopefully) desired direction.

No, when turning left (to port), the rudder itself is to the left. What
is to starboard would have been the tiller, in days when there were such
things as tillers. Possibly there is still such a thing as a tiller
attached to the rudder post in some ships, but I bet most of them now
have some kind of quadrant attached--that would change depending on the
specific steering engine, of course.

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
Even in this days of very long range engagements, in the heat of action
is still critical to make the correct turn (for example, not few ships
has their CIWS aft)
On the gun numbering, I should note that in Italian Navy turrets, mounts
& guns when there was twin & triple turrets, the numbering reverse for
the guns/turrets facing aft; the for example, aboard the now gone
Bow
^
1 2
3 4
6 5
8 6
-
stern
so, the left barrel from the pov behind the gun (when the weapons was
manned, and the old 76/62 was indeed manned) was always the first in the
counting sequence. But still I don't have idea of which was no. 6 and
no.8 12" gun in the Cavours & Dorias pre-modernization, no 3 turret not
having a definite on keel position; in many photos they are pointing
aft, and in many other photos are pointing forward.

I understand that in the RN in the days of dreadnought battleships,
turrets were referred to as A and B forward, X and Y aft. Midships
turrets were P and Q.

As regards the Italian battleships of the Conte di Cavour and Andrea
Doria classes, the diagrams I have seen all have the midships turrets
facing forward when centered. Photos of them facing aft probably show
them at an extreme angle to one side or the other; there was not enough
room between the turrets and the mainmast in either class for the
turrets to train dead aft.

[CJ Adams]

Post by Peter Granzeau
I understand that in the RN in the days of dreadnought battleships,
turrets were referred to as A and B forward, X and Y aft. Midships
turrets were P and Q.

Excwpt in HMS Agincourt (the Jutland one). Turrets were
given the days of the week.

Cheers
CJ Adams

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Peter Granzeau
I understand that in the RN in the days of dreadnought battleships,
turrets were referred to as A and B forward, X and Y aft. Midships
turrets were P and Q.

Excwpt in HMS Agincourt (the Jutland one). Turrets were given the days
of the week.

Sirs and ladies,

After some years of absence, we announce that the s.n.m. classic yearly
Turret Numberig Thread is coming back ! ;(

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
Sirs and ladies,
After some years of absence, we announce that the s.n.m. classic yearly
Turret Numberig Thread is coming back ! ;(

^^^

Of course I mean ---> ;) <---- not the reverse (parens being adjacent on
the Italian keyboard) and also there was a HUGE mess around me when I
tried to post....

I apologize for having convoyed the opposite message, and

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[Richard Casady]

Post by CJ Adams

Post by Peter Granzeau
I understand that in the RN in the days of dreadnought battleships,
turrets were referred to as A and B forward, X and Y aft. Midships
turrets were P and Q.

Excwpt in HMS Agincourt (the Jutland one). Turrets were
given the days of the week.

About a century ago they built the seven masted schooner, Thomas
Lawson. The masts were named for the days of the week.

Casady

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by Richard Casady

Post by Peter Granzeau
I understand that in the RN in the days of dreadnought battleships,
turrets were referred to as A and B forward, X and Y aft.  Midships
turrets were P and Q.

Excwpt in HMS Agincourt (the Jutland one).  Turrets were
given the days of the week.

About a century ago they built the seven masted schooner, Thomas
Lawson. The masts were named for the days of the week.
Casady

Sunday = fore, Monday = main, Tuesday = mizzen, Wednesday =frigger,
Thursday = jigger, Friday = driver, Saturday = spanker. Described as
"undercanvased and difficult to handle".

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Peter Granzeau
As regards the Italian battleships of the Conte di Cavour and Andrea
Doria classes, the diagrams I have seen all have the midships turrets
facing forward when centered. Photos of them facing aft probably show
them at an extreme angle to one side or the other; there was not enough
room between the turrets and the mainmast in either class for the
turrets to train dead aft.

I can assure you that Cs and more so Ds have all needed space for 360°
rotating. In many diagrams & photos seems to be no space because the
boat crane was located on the aft tripod (for this reason during late
20s, when the tripod was moved further aft, was in place the stump of
the central mast, where was the crane, giving them a rather ugly profile)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[BF Lake]

"dott.Piergiorgio" <***@KAIGUN.fastwebnet.it> wrote in
message news:NSPXk.41829

On the gun numbering, I should note that in Italian Navy turrets, mounts &
guns when there was twin & triple turrets, the numbering reverse for the
guns/turrets facing aft; the for example, aboard the now gone missile
Bow
^
1 2
3 4
6 5
8 6
-
stern
so, the left barrel from the pov behind the gun (when the weapons was
manned, and the old 76/62 was indeed manned) was always the first in the
counting sequence. But still I don't have idea of which was no. 6 and no.8
12" gun in the Cavours & Dorias pre-modernization, no 3 turret not having
a definite on keel position; in many photos they are pointing aft, and in
many other photos are pointing forward.

What happened to the sacred rule "Even numbers to port, odd numbers to
starboard?" In the RN the gun turrets or mountings can have letters or
numbers or both , but the guns are called "left gun" right gun" "centre
un" ---BTW I have no idea what they did in the four barrel turrets of the
KGV's. Anybody know?

The individual guns in a turret can have unofficial names. In the German
Navy, they also had nicknames for their lettered turrets starting with the
letter of that turret's designation. Nicknaming a gun goes way way back of
course.

The Air Force is really screwed up. The four engines in their planes are
numbered 1,2,3,4. Totally confusing. In the Navy, these would properly be
numbered 4,2,1,3 so you know immediately which is which.

Regards,
Barry

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by BF Lake
message news:NSPXk.41829

On the gun numbering, I should note that in Italian Navy turrets, mounts &
guns when there was twin & triple turrets, the numbering reverse for the
guns/turrets facing aft; the for example, aboard the now gone missile
Bow
^
1 2
3 4
6 5
8 6
-
stern
so, the left barrel from the pov behind the gun (when the weapons was
manned, and the old 76/62 was indeed manned) was always the first in the
counting sequence. But still I don't have idea of which was no. 6 and no.8
12" gun in the Cavours & Dorias pre-modernization, no 3 turret not having
a definite on keel position; in many photos they are pointing aft, and in
many other photos are pointing forward.

What happened to the sacred rule "Even numbers to port, odd numbers to
starboard?" In the RN the gun turrets or mountings can have letters or
numbers or both , but the guns are called "left gun" right gun" "centre
un" ---BTW I have no idea what they did in the four barrel turrets of the
KGV's. Anybody know?

if you're writing numbers, you will write:

1,2,3,4,5,6 ecc.

so, from the pov of a gunner behind the guns inside a turret, perhaps a
draftee from the remote places in Abruzzi or Sardinia, came natural
refer to the leftmost gun with the lower number.

Italy never has a custom of voluntary enlistment, so one must do with
what the draft list give; one must also keep in mind that here in
certain timeframes the Army and later the air force takes some
unofficial "priority" in taking the best of the yearly draft classes.

Best regards from Italy,

[george]

All you have to know

The port wine is left in the bottle

[CJ Adams]

Post by george
All you have to know
The port wine is left in the bottle

Not at the dinners I go to and besides, respectable ships
decant.

Port is short and left is short and red is short --(as
compared with starboard, right and green).

Cheers
CJ Adams
MV Rhea (lang syne)

[george]

Post by CJ Adams

 All you have to know
The port wine is left in the bottle

Not at the dinners I go to and besides, respectable ships
decant.

Which is why the wine is left in the bottle :-)

Post by CJ Adams
Port is short and left is short and red is short --(as
compared with starboard, right and green).

That's one I hadn't heard

[Roger Conroy]

Post by george

Post by CJ Adams

Post by george
All you have to know
The port wine is left in the bottle

Not at the dinners I go to and besides, respectable ships
decant.

Which is why the wine is left in the bottle :-)

Post by CJ Adams
Port is short and left is short and red is short --(as
compared with starboard, right and green).

That's one I hadn't heard

I've posted this before but here we go again! :P

My maternal grandfather, not a Navy man (Royal Tank Regiment 1939-1945) but
he was Commodore of a sailing club; would ask "Is there any red port
left?" - then he'd empty the bottle/decanter into his glass.

[Jeff]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

I hope they don't helm orders were outlawed in 1930 to stop confusion that
had caused many collisions and groundings.!!

Jeff

[BF Lake]

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

I hope they don't helm orders were outlawed in 1930 to stop confusion that
had caused many collisions and groundings.!!

Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take the
wheel"

We do get sloppy referring to the wheel as the helm, calling conning orders
(the correct term) helm orders / wheel orders / steering orders.

We do not get sloppy giving conning orders. For one thing if the captain
uses the exact correct wording of a conning order on the bridge it means he
has taken the conn from the OOW. Usually the captain will tell the OOW what
he wants using some other wording. (He will not use "left" or "right"
though. or "back up" :) )

If the ops room is telling the OOW what to do, the ops room officer will
also not use actual conning orders, but some other wording. Only the one
who has the conn gives actual conning orders.

Very occasionally, the navigating officer will want to give conning orders
directly, and take the conn. This does not make the NO the OOW for that
time though. Otherwise, the NO will also tell the OOW what to do in other
wording than real conning orders.

When a ship has a pilot on board, he will say what he wants done in his own
way, and the OOW will give proper conning orders. No left, right there
either unless the pilot is American. eg, I remember the pilot taking us
up river to Buenos Aires said "port" and "starboard"

Regards,
Barry

[Jeff]

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
the wheel"

..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

Jeff

[BF Lake]

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster"
who was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in
WW2 stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster
take the wheel"

..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

The old trades had a Quartermaster Branch and guys in that trade would be
quartermasters. The senior man of that trade on board would be designated
the ship's Coxswain, so in action stations he might well be on the wheel as
the most experienced. In that case, you are right, the captain might well
say, "Coxswain on the wheel" when things get dicey.

A shining example was during the battle between HMCS ASSINIBOINE and U-210
in poor vis when the sub was caught on the surface too close to have time to
dive., and got in close enough to be too close to be hit by the DD's main
guns at full depression.

" For thirty five minutes the two craft ran weaving and dodging together,
blasting each other at point-blank range with all available weapons... (a
fire was started by German 40mm by the wheelhouse and a damage control party
was trying to put it out while still under fire) ...Inside the wheelhouse
.(the)..coxswain, Chief Petty Officer Max L. Bernays, saw the flames
mounting above his starboard window and ordered his helmsman and
telegraphman outside to assist. Then locking himself in the wheelhouse,
with full knowledge that he would never get out alive if the fire were not
subdued, and with incendiary shells spattering the bulkheads about him and
throwing splinters in his face, he proceeded to carry out faultlessly the
141 helm and engine room orders which were necessary during the wild chase"
(from The Far Distant Ships, by J. Schull) (Much more then "Bones" rammed
and sank U-210)

Also during all this the DDs captain (fully exposed on his bridge too)
watched "the German captain in his conning tower bending down to pass wheel
orders.....for an instant a 4.7 gun came fully to bear on the U-boat's
conning tower and a shell hit dead on, killing the German commanding
officer."

In normal watches, the "watch on deck" is a little group that rotates
through positions such as lookout, after lookout, wheelhouse. (in the ships
up to the 1960s the wheelhouse was away from the bridge usually down below
somewhere--with the advent of computer machinery control systems and
controllable pitch propellers, the wheelhouse function is now on the bridge
itself. In the USN the wheel has been on the bridge forever it
seems.--except in the armoured control tower in WW2 cruisers and such --not
sure if that was a secondary position only used at action stations.

Regards,
Barry

[Ed Medlin]

Post by BF Lake

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster"
who was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note
in WW2 stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says,
"Quartermaster take the wheel"

..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

The old trades had a Quartermaster Branch and guys in that trade would be
quartermasters. The senior man of that trade on board would be designated
the ship's Coxswain, so in action stations he might well be on the wheel
as the most experienced. In that case, you are right, the captain might
well say, "Coxswain on the wheel" when things get dicey.
A shining example was during the battle between HMCS ASSINIBOINE and
U-210 in poor vis when the sub was caught on the surface too close to have
time to dive., and got in close enough to be too close to be hit by the
DD's main guns at full depression.
" For thirty five minutes the two craft ran weaving and dodging together,
blasting each other at point-blank range with all available weapons... (a
fire was started by German 40mm by the wheelhouse and a damage control
party was trying to put it out while still under fire) ...Inside the
wheelhouse .(the)..coxswain, Chief Petty Officer Max L. Bernays, saw the
flames mounting above his starboard window and ordered his helmsman and
telegraphman outside to assist. Then locking himself in the wheelhouse,
with full knowledge that he would never get out alive if the fire were not
subdued, and with incendiary shells spattering the bulkheads about him and
throwing splinters in his face, he proceeded to carry out faultlessly the
141 helm and engine room orders which were necessary during the wild
chase" (from The Far Distant Ships, by J. Schull) (Much more then
"Bones" rammed and sank U-210)
Also during all this the DDs captain (fully exposed on his bridge too)
watched "the German captain in his conning tower bending down to pass
wheel orders.....for an instant a 4.7 gun came fully to bear on the
U-boat's conning tower and a shell hit dead on, killing the German
commanding officer."
In normal watches, the "watch on deck" is a little group that rotates
through positions such as lookout, after lookout, wheelhouse. (in the
ships up to the 1960s the wheelhouse was away from the bridge usually
down below somewhere--with the advent of computer machinery control
systems and controllable pitch propellers, the wheelhouse function is now
on the bridge itself. In the USN the wheel has been on the bridge
forever it seems.--except in the armoured control tower in WW2 cruisers
and such --not sure if that was a secondary position only used at action
stations.
Regards,
Barry

On landing craft like I was on during Vietnam, we had the craftmaster,
usually an E5 or above, on the con which was directly above the wheelhouse
and we communicated via tube. I was usually the coxwain during beach
landings and when entering a ship like an LSD for no other reason than I had
been onboard longer than most. On rivers, I was on a gun mount and another
crew member would be on the wheel. Seaside is where everyone got their
experience on the helm and everyone with the exception of the craftmaster
would take their watch on the helm. Orders to the gun mounts were not
especially difficult as we could usually see all we needed to for 20mm,
50cal and various small arms.


Ed

[Fred J. McCall]

"Jeff" <***@local.host> wrote:

:
:> Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
:> called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
:> was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
:> stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
:> the wheel"
:>
:
:..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.
:

Only for small craft.

US usage also has a very real difference between 'Helmsman' (or
'Helm') and 'Quartermaster'. The Quartermaster does navigational
things (takes care of charts, clocks, etc, and does navigational
fixes). The Helmsman does maneuvering things (steers the ship).

[Ed Medlin]

Post by Fred J. McCall
:> Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
:> called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
:> was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
:> stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
:> the wheel"
:>
:..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.
Only for small craft.
US usage also has a very real difference between 'Helmsman' (or
'Helm') and 'Quartermaster'. The Quartermaster does navigational
things (takes care of charts, clocks, etc, and does navigational
fixes). The Helmsman does maneuvering things (steers the ship).
--
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
will never know.

I am not sure how it is done now, but in the 60s and 70s anyone in a "deck"
rating could be a coxswain. This was Boatswain Mates, Quartermasters,
Radiomen, Signalmen, Gunners Mates, and so on. Training for me was at
Coronado, CA since I was on amphibious boats. I was a Radioman. Even after I
left the Amphibious Forces the training stuck with me as I was sometimes
moved to the "liberty boats" for my watches while at anchor and pulled from
the radio shack. The terms Helmsman and Coxswain are not interchangeable.
The Helmsman is the person who is on the helm and a Coxswain is in charge of
a small craft (like a liberty boat), or has expertise in one or more areas
of maneuvering a larger boat that may have a craftmaster or boat captain
actually in command. The term Coxswain is almost always used when talking
about boats and not ships. Helmsman can be either. A Coxswain has specific
training in the operation of boats like the "rules of the road" and
maneuvering.

Ed

[BF Lake]

Post by Ed Medlin
I am not sure how it is done now, but in the 60s and 70s anyone in a
"deck" rating could be a coxswain. This was Boatswain Mates,
Quartermasters, Radiomen, Signalmen, Gunners Mates, and so on. Training
for me was at Coronado, CA since I was on amphibious boats. I was a
Radioman. Even after I left the Amphibious Forces the training stuck with
me as I was sometimes moved to the "liberty boats" for my watches while at
anchor and pulled from the radio shack. The terms Helmsman and Coxswain
are not interchangeable. The Helmsman is the person who is on the helm and
a Coxswain is in charge of a small craft (like a liberty boat), or has
expertise in one or more areas of maneuvering a larger boat that may have
a craftmaster or boat captain actually in command. The term Coxswain is
almost always used when talking about boats and not ships. Helmsman can be
either. A Coxswain has specific training in the operation of boats like
the "rules of the road" and maneuvering.

In RN related navies, in small ships, the senior man is called the
Coxswain. It is a position like USN subs' Chief of the Boat.
The senior boatswain's mate is called the "Buffer." In big ships, the
senior man in the Regulating Branch was in that role and he was called the
"Master" since he was the Master at Arms too. With all the changes in
trades structure and branches combining these terms are still used but have
lost their original meanings. For instance, in harbour we still have a
gangway staff and the senior one of those is the "corporal of the gangway"
and his junior is called the 'boatswain's mate" even though it has been a
long time since there were "ship's corporals"

In a boat, the person steering is called the coxswain, regardless of his
trade or seniority. If you want to be allowed to take away a ship's boat
under sail, you have to take a "coxswain's course" and get a coxswain's
certificate first.

Regards,
Barry

[Ed Medlin]

Post by BF Lake
In RN related navies, in small ships, the senior man is called the
Coxswain. It is a position like USN subs' Chief of the Boat.
The senior boatswain's mate is called the "Buffer." In big ships, the
senior man in the Regulating Branch was in that role and he was called the
"Master" since he was the Master at Arms too. With all the changes in
trades structure and branches combining these terms are still used but
have lost their original meanings. For instance, in harbour we still
have a gangway staff and the senior one of those is the "corporal of the
gangway" and his junior is called the 'boatswain's mate" even though it
has been a long time since there were "ship's corporals"
In a boat, the person steering is called the coxswain, regardless of his
trade or seniority. If you want to be allowed to take away a ship's boat
under sail, you have to take a "coxswain's course" and get a coxswain's
certificate first.
Regards,
Barry

That is pretty much the same as the USN except that we called the man on the
helm the helmsman. It was the same with the "ship's boat" or "liberty boat"
in that the Coxswain must be certified. On boats like a ship's boat or
liberty boat the man in charge was the Coxswain. On other boats we may have
a Chief of Boat, Craftmaster or Boat Captain depending on the type of boat.

Ed

[Fred J. McCall]

"Ed Medlin" <ed@ edmedlin.com> wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:***@4ax.com...
:> "Jeff" <***@local.host> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :> Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what
:> it's
:> :> called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster"
:> who
:> :> was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in
:> WW2
:> :> stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster
:> take
:> :> the wheel"
:> :>
:> :
:> :..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.
:> :
:>
:> Only for small craft.
:>
:> US usage also has a very real difference between 'Helmsman' (or
:> 'Helm') and 'Quartermaster'. The Quartermaster does navigational
:> things (takes care of charts, clocks, etc, and does navigational
:> fixes). The Helmsman does maneuvering things (steers the ship).
:>
:> --
:> You have never lived until you have almost died.
:> Life has a special meaning that the protected
:> will never know.
:
:I am not sure how it is done now, but in the 60s and 70s anyone in a "deck"
:rating could be a coxswain. This was Boatswain Mates, Quartermasters,
:Radiomen, Signalmen, Gunners Mates, and so on. Training for me was at
:Coronado, CA since I was on amphibious boats. I was a Radioman. Even after I
:left the Amphibious Forces the training stuck with me as I was sometimes
:moved to the "liberty boats" for my watches while at anchor and pulled from
:the radio shack. The terms Helmsman and Coxswain are not interchangeable.
:The Helmsman is the person who is on the helm and a Coxswain is in charge of
:a small craft (like a liberty boat), or has expertise in one or more areas
:of maneuvering a larger boat that may have a craftmaster or boat captain
:actually in command. The term Coxswain is almost always used when talking
:about boats and not ships. Helmsman can be either. A Coxswain has specific
:training in the operation of boats like the "rules of the road" and
:maneuvering.
:

That's what I said - coxswain is only small craft.

I then went on to differentiate USN usage between quartermaster and
helmsman or ships (vice boats and craft).

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by Fred J. McCall
:> Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
:> called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
:> was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
:> stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
:> the wheel"
:>
:..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.
Only for small craft.
US usage also has a very real difference between 'Helmsman' (or
'Helm') and 'Quartermaster'. The Quartermaster does navigational
things (takes care of charts, clocks, etc, and does navigational
fixes). The Helmsman does maneuvering things (steers the ship).

The watch positions for steaming at the time I was in 50 years ago
called the man on the wheel "helmsman". The man on the engine room
telegraph was the "lee helm". The two of them were usually seamen from
one of the deck divisions, and the lee helm was frequently being trained
as a helmsman.

There was also a quartermaster of thw watch, who kept the
quartermaster's notebook, an official part of the ship's log, from which
the OOD would write his rough log at watch's end.

[Patriot]

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by Fred J. McCall
:> Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
:> called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
:> was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
:> stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
:> the wheel"
:>
:..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.
Only for small craft.
US usage also has a very real difference between 'Helmsman' (or
'Helm') and 'Quartermaster'. The Quartermaster does navigational
things (takes care of charts, clocks, etc, and does navigational
fixes). The Helmsman does maneuvering things (steers the ship).

The watch positions for steaming at the time I was in 50 years ago
called the man on the wheel "helmsman". The man on the engine room
telegraph was the "lee helm". The two of them were usually seamen from
one of the deck divisions, and the lee helm was frequently being trained
as a helmsman.

Helsman, Lee Helmsman, Port watch, Starboard watch, Messenger of the
watch... All from Deck Division. Quartermaster, 2 Signalmen ..All from
OC (Operations Communications Division). The Deck division Sailors each
took turns at the different watch stations. All were Helm trained.
The only divergence from this was a special Helmsman for General
Quarters and Special sea details etc. 2 Commissioned officers at minimum
on the bridge.. Officer of the Deck and Jr Officer of the Deck. Captains
Sea Cabin physically linked to thje Bridge. Combat Information Center
also very close at hand with a standard watch of at least 4 personal and
an Intelligence officer. Varies in all respects to size of ship and its
assigned mission.

Post by Peter Granzeau
There was also a quartermaster of thw watch, who kept the
quartermaster's notebook, an official part of the ship's log, from which
the OOD would write his rough log at watch's end.

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
the wheel"

..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

Not in the USN.

[Jeff]

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster" who
was in charge of the helmsman if he took the wheel himself. Note in WW2
stories/movies, when things get dicey, the OOW says, "Quartermaster take
the wheel"

..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

Not in the USN.

But the comment was about "RN and related navies"!!!

I am trying to remember which film the quote "Coxswains at the wheel" comes
from, it might be the Yangtze Incident or Battle of the River Plate.

Jeff

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by Jeff

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
Yes, but in the RN and related navies, the person on the wheel (what it's
called) is called the "helmsman" or up to post WW2 the "quartermaster"

[snip]

Post by Jeff

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by Jeff
..and there was me thinking it was the coxswain.

Not in the USN.

But the comment was about "RN and related navies"!!!

I'm wrong or, US being originally a bunch of former UK colonies, USN
_is_ a "related navy" wrt. RN ?

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

[Neill McKay]

Post by dott.Piergiorgio
I'm wrong or, US being originally a bunch of former UK colonies, USN
_is_ a "related navy" wrt. RN ?

I would suggest not. The major Commonwealth navies have a history of
being very close to one another, such that at one time officers were
considered to be interchangeable amongst them. While the US is part of
the so-called Anglosphere, its navy is not cast in the same mould as the
Commonwealth navies.

[William Hamblen]

Post by Jeff

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

I hope they don't helm orders were outlawed in 1930 to stop confusion that
had caused many collisions and groundings.!!
Jeff

See http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/gen_order_30.htm for
the order changing the orders. In 1913.

Bud

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do.  How come?
In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and green
(starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.
But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel.   When fixed
guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns port and
starboard for guns lost all meaning.
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing forward
when doing his trick at the wheel.  So what's with the left/right lubberly
language?
Regards,
Barry

I can remember "hard aport", "port your helm", "hard astarboard".

I wonder how much came from the old problem of putting the tiller left
(port) to turn right (starboard).

[Ed Medlin]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?
In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and
green (starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.
But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel. When
fixed guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns
port and starboard for guns lost all meaning.
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing
forward when doing his trick at the wheel. So what's with the left/right
lubberly language?
Regards,
Barry

Never thought much about that. I was a helmsman on an LCU and we did use
left and right for the helm and port and starboard for the engines(and on
some of the old boats we had a center engine). I guess it may have been that
way to prevent confusion. Everything happens very fast when approaching a
beach or entering an amphib ship. Sometimes so fast that repeating the
orders back to the craftmaster is not done. On the final approach to the
beach or when entering a ship, the rudder is usually centered and only
engines (port and starboard) are used.


Ed

[Fred J. McCall]

"BF Lake" <***@nospam.com> wrote:
:
:The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
:starboard like other navies do. How come?
:

Do other navies actually say things like 'Port full rudder'? Sounds
very, VERY odd to me.

[BF Lake]

Post by Fred J. McCall
:The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
:starboard like other navies do. How come?
Do other navies actually say things like 'Port full rudder'? Sounds
very, VERY odd to me.

Me too. The max angle on the rudder in a ship might be 40 degrees, so
that order would be "Port 40" In an emergency, the captain might shout,
"Hard a port" but the OOW will say the conning order, Port 40. (if the
captain says port 40 he now has the conn)

Engine orders do have an emergency protocol so the engine room knows it is
urgent.
The wheelhouse has a telegraph for each engine which has Full, Half, Slow,
Stop. The other telegraph transmitter has the revolutions you want that are
cranked on. These are repeated in the engine room so they can see what the
bridge wants. If you want full speed and that is 240 revolutions in your
ship, you stay at Half Ahead, but say, "Revolutions 240." The engineer will
speed up while keeping an eye on his gauges etc. If it is an emergency you
say "Full speed ahead both engines" and the engineer will open the
throttles and get going as fast as possible without actually bursting any
pipes or whatever. (never say full ahead, always say full speed ahead)

In pilotage waters, the navigating officer will draw his passage plan on the
chart figuring his turning points (called, "wheel overs") using the advance
and transfer for a turn using a certain rudder angle depending on how tight
a turn it needs to be and the speed. He will pick a mark on land off to
one side with the bearing it will be at wheel over. Say he picked 15
degrees rudder.

Before getting to the turning point, the NO will announce so the OOW and
captain can hear, "Next alteration is to port, using fifteen degrees of
rudder, new course will be 273." When the NO sees the mark is at the
bearing, he says "At wheel over now" The OOW says, "Port 15" and conns
the ship around onto 273 with further conning orders "Midships" "Starboard
10" "Midships" "Steer 273"

For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Regards,
Barry

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Post by BF Lake
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Out of curiosity, how Corpens, and manouvers in general are actually
worked in the various bridges of the formation ? especially in 1940s
USN, during the battles & actions in that labyrinth whose is the Western
Pacific ?

[BF Lake]

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by BF Lake
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Out of curiosity, how Corpens, and manouvers in general are actually
worked in the various bridges of the formation ? especially in 1940s USN,
during the battles & actions in that labyrinth whose is the Western
Pacific ?

The 1949 NATO signal book and ATP1 were adopted from the USN's system for
fleet manoeuvring used in WW2. The RN's previous system was similar as
all navies' must be to solve the same problems. (The RN seems to have
gotten more serious about it all after 22 June 1893)

There may have been some commonality from when the USN was with the Grand
Fleet in WW1 too. ??

Regards,
Barry

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by BF Lake

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by BF Lake
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Out of curiosity, how Corpens, and manouvers in general are actually
worked in the various bridges of the formation ? especially in 1940s USN,
during the battles & actions in that labyrinth whose is the Western
Pacific ?

The 1949 NATO signal book and ATP1 were adopted from the USN's system for
fleet manoeuvring used in WW2. The RN's previous system was similar as
all navies' must be to solve the same problems. (The RN seems to have
gotten more serious about it all after 22 June 1893)
There may have been some commonality from when the USN was with the Grand
Fleet in WW1 too. ??

The Fifth Battle Squadron of the Grand Fleet would have had to adopt the
RN methods of signaling. They also adopted the use of range clocks on
the masts and whatever they called the marks on the turrets so ships in
line ahead could tell to what angle the guns were trained.

[guy]

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by dott.Piergiorgio

Post by BF Lake
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning.  The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Out of curiosity, how Corpens, and manouvers in general are actually
worked in the various bridges of the formation ? especially in 1940s USN,
during the battles & actions in that labyrinth whose is the Western
Pacific ?

The 1949  NATO signal book and ATP1 were adopted from the USN's system for
fleet manoeuvring used in WW2.   The RN's  previous system was similar as
all navies' must be to solve the same problems.  (The RN seems to have
gotten more serious about it all after 22 June 1893)
There may have been some commonality from when the USN was with the Grand
Fleet in WW1 too. ??

The Fifth Battle Squadron of the Grand Fleet would have had to adopt the
RN methods of signaling.  They also adopted the use of range clocks on
the masts and whatever they called the marks on the turrets so ships in
line ahead could tell to what angle the guns were trained.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I assume you mean Sixth BS;-)

There is also a recorded case of the 6th BS, using the RN signal book,
making a Starboard/Right turn when the rest of the Grand Fleet turned
to Port/Left. Apparently the Flag Lieutenants' response was 'I guess I
told you wrong admiral'

Guy

[BF Lake]

"guy" <***@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:27ebf503-b629-4552-8909-


I assume you mean Sixth BS;-)

ISTR that collection of BBs had one squadron or division number in the USN
and used another number when with the Grand Fleet. Need to look up the USN
number. Was the USN in the North Atlantic a Squadron or a Fleet at the time?
Makes a difference for whether the BBs were a squadron or division at home.

Regards,
Barry

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by BF Lake
news:27ebf503-b629-4552-8909-
I assume you mean Sixth BS;-)
ISTR that collection of BBs had one squadron or division number in the USN
and used another number when with the Grand Fleet.  Need to look up the USN
number. Was the USN in the North Atlantic a Squadron or a Fleet at the time?
Makes a difference for whether the BBs were a squadron or division at home.
Regards,
Barry

Most of the battlefleet stayed in American waters because of the
shortage of fuel oil in Britain, but five coal-burning dreadnoughts
served with the British Grand Fleet as the 6th Battle Squadron (US
Battleship Division 9) tipping the balance of power against the German
High Seas Fleet even further in favour of the Allies. They were also
present at the surrender of the German Fleet. Other dreadnoughts
(Battleship Division 6) were based in Berehaven, Bantry Bay, SW
Ireland to counter any break-out by German battlecruisers to attack US
troop convoys. Some of the pre-dreadnoughts, armoured cruisers and
protected cruisers were employed as convoy escorts, 1917-18 both along
the coasts of the Americas and in the Atlantic.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyUS.htm

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by BF Lake
In pilotage waters, the navigating officer will draw his passage plan on the
chart figuring his turning points (called, "wheel overs") using the advance
and transfer for a turn using a certain rudder angle depending on how tight
a turn it needs to be and the speed. He will pick a mark on land off to
one side with the bearing it will be at wheel over. Say he picked 15
degrees rudder.
Before getting to the turning point, the NO will announce so the OOW and
captain can hear, "Next alteration is to port, using fifteen degrees of
rudder, new course will be 273." When the NO sees the mark is at the
bearing, he says "At wheel over now" The OOW says, "Port 15" and conns
the ship around onto 273 with further conning orders "Midships" "Starboard
10" "Midships" "Steer 273"
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

My ship had "standard" and "full" rudder orders--Standard rudder was
about 12 degrees, full rudder was 30 degrees. Usually, orders were
given with a rudder order, followed by a new course--"Left standard
rudder, new course 135 degrees" (course was gyro course unless specified
otherwise). It was left to the helmsman to steady on the new course
(they learned pretty quickly how to steady up on a new course, so the
conn usually didn't micromanage, aside from an infrequent "Watch your
course" if something got out of hand at the helm.

Standard rudder was calculated to give a certain turning radius; I
forget what it was. Full rudder was seldom ordered.

Since each ship will respond differently to a given rudder angle,
operation orders would specify a certain turning radius, not a rudder
angle; it was probably usually the same radius as standard rudder.

[BF Lake]

Post by Peter Granzeau

Post by BF Lake
For fleetwork, standing orders for that fleet will state somewhere that
(say )15 degrees rudder will be the standard for turning. The guide will
use that and everyone else will do what he needs to maintain his position.

Standard rudder was calculated to give a certain turning radius; I
forget what it was. Full rudder was seldom ordered.
Since each ship will respond differently to a given rudder angle,
operation orders would specify a certain turning radius, not a rudder
angle; it was probably usually the same radius as standard rudder.

Yes, when working with a USN carrier ISTR the orders said she would turn at
a certain amount and everyone else had turn to keep station, which meant
you had to sort of work your way around, using maybe 5 degrees of rudder.

In the RCN where we had so many of the same class of ship, Squadron orders
would specify a "standard" rudder, but that only applied when working with
the same class of ship. In every case the "standard" only applied to the
guide and everyone else did what they had to do. You might start with
"Port15 " and then realize it wasn't working and have to tighten up "Port
20" or widen the turn "Ease to 10" The fleet orders would call it a
"standard" rudder angle but conning orders in RN related navies do not use
the term "standard rudder" as they do in the USN.

There is no equivalent to the navigational duties of a USN quartermaster in
the RN related navies. On the bridge the OOW does all the navigation
himself unless the navigating officer has taken that over personally. If
there is a Second OOW ( under training) he will navigate too, but the OOW is
still responsible.

One man from the crew would be assigned the duty of assisting the
navigating officer to do chart corrections etc. (RN calls this guy "Tanky"
since in the old days he used to also have the job of sounding the tanks)
Usually a man from the Boatswain trade. That would be the nearest thing to
USN practice.

After WW2 the RCN Quartermaster Branch was merged with the Boatswains (and
Sailmakers) and now they are talking about merging them all with the
Signalmen too (if they haven't done it already) the Regulating Branch
(ship's police) disappeared too.

In fact the USN quartermaster system is more traditional, going back to
sailing ship days when the Master did the navigating and had a small staff.

Regards,
Barry

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by BF Lake
There is no equivalent to the navigational duties of a USN quartermaster in
the RN related navies. On the bridge the OOW does all the navigation
himself unless the navigating officer has taken that over personally. If
there is a Second OOW ( under training) he will navigate too, but the OOW is
still responsible.
One man from the crew would be assigned the duty of assisting the
navigating officer to do chart corrections etc. (RN calls this guy "Tanky"
since in the old days he used to also have the job of sounding the tanks)
Usually a man from the Boatswain trade. That would be the nearest thing to
USN practice.
After WW2 the RCN Quartermaster Branch was merged with the Boatswains (and
Sailmakers) and now they are talking about merging them all with the
Signalmen too (if they haven't done it already) the Regulating Branch
(ship's police) disappeared too.
In fact the USN quartermaster system is more traditional, going back to
sailing ship days when the Master did the navigating and had a small staff.

Probably. The USN Quartermaster rating merged at one time with
Signalmen, then split again. I have no idea what it has done in the
past 45 years.

My ship had 5 men assigned as quartermasters (a couple were strikers).
The senior enlisted quartermaster assisted the navigator, managed the
charts, wound the chronometers, and assigned the lower enlisted to
watches on the bridge. 50 years ago, celestial sight were the only
method of establishing a "fix", anything else was an estimated position.
No GPS, of course; I assume that is what is now used by the Navigator to
report his position to the captain at 0800, noon, and 2000, and
celestial sights are only done for exercise.

[j***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

50 years ago, celestial sight were the only method of establishing
a "fix", anything else was an estimated position.

Didn't you have LORAN or any of it's relatives? Or were they still
counted as "estimated positions"?

[Peter Granzeau]

Post by j***@cix.compulink.co.uk

50 years ago, celestial sight were the only method of establishing
a "fix", anything else was an estimated position.

Didn't you have LORAN or any of it's relatives? Or were they still
counted as "estimated positions"?

We did have a LORAN receiver, and when in areas where that would give a
position, used it, for an "Estimated Position". The farthest east LORAN
went in those days was Iceland, however, so it was pretty much useless
in much of the Atlantic.

[Jeff Crowell]

Post by BF Lake
The max angle on the rudder in a ship might be 40 degrees, so
that order would be "Port 40" In an emergency, the captain might shout,
"Hard a port" but the OOW will say the conning order, Port 40. (if the
captain says port 40 he now has the conn)

U.S. Navy ships usually order rudder angles as 'standard' and 'full,'
e.g. "left standard rudder." This is because the rudder control system
is calibrated so that, for a particular class of ship, a standard rudder
angle gives a standard rate turn. Unfortunately a standard turn in a
Spruance class DD is not the same as a standard rate turn in a Perry
class FFG. But in multi-ship maneuver drills, you can expect that the
guide will maneuver using standard rudder angles. As a following ship
you use what you have to, usually by giving a full rudder order to get
the ship swinging and then easing the rudder as needed to get to where
you need to be.

It is perfectly permissible to give rudder orders by angle, just less
common in normal maneuvering.


Jeff

[z***@netscape.net]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do.  How come?

Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
made for Battleships, shipyards too.

Post by BF Lake
In the RCN newbie OOWs are advised to paint their shoes red (left) and green
(starboard) so they can look down and tell which way is which.
Unfortunately this scheme fails them when facing aft.
But twin gun mountings/turrets do have a left and right barrel.   When fixed
guns of the port and starboard batteries gave way to rotating guns port and
starboard for guns lost all meaning.
But even the USN with all its peculiarities has the helmsman facing forward
when doing his trick at the wheel.  So what's with the left/right lubberly
language?
Regards,
Barry

[BF Lake]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
made for Battleships, shipyards too.


Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.

BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?

Regards,
Barry

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

  Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
  rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
  CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
  Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
  successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
  made for Battleships, shipyards too.
Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.
BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?
Regards,
Barry

I see an April 2003 entry, anyone er anything earlier?

[BF Lake]

"Jack Linthicum" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7aee0889-8cf3-4827-875c-

Post by BF Lake
BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?

I see an April 2003 entry, anyone er anything earlier?

ZZ changed his call sign back then (or was it earlier?) from whatever it was
before, perhaps when he was moved to a more secure institution, but it is
still the same brain/computer entity.

Regards,
Barry

[z***@netscape.net]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

  Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
  rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
  CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
  Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
  successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
  made for Battleships, shipyards too.
Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.

It wasn't supposed to make sense. Since that's why Drones work
so well were idiots, Air Farce tax-a-thoners, and rudders don't.

BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?
Regards,
Barry

[guy]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

  Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
  rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
  CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
  Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
  successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
  made for Battleships, shipyards too.
Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.
BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?
Regards,
Barry

I am just thick Barry, I simply do not understand any of his posts.

Guy

[Jack Linthicum]

Post by guy

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

  Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
  rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
  CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
  Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
  successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
  made for Battleships, shipyards too.
Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.
BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?
Regards,
Barry

I am just thick Barry, I simply do not understand any of his posts.
Guy

Think of ZZ as one of those briefers that the military likes to throw
at the visiting big wigs, he sputters out words you recognize but in
such format as to make you think you should understand. Not to worry,
many people think the ZZer is a bot that takes your statement and
responds with a series of buzzwords linked by non-standard sentence
structure.

cf

It wasn't supposed to make sense. Since that's why Drones work
so well were idiots, Air Farce tax-a-thoners, and rudders don't.

with a misspelled word "were" for "where" and a new buzzword for
people who take money, tax-a-thoners.

[BF Lake]

"guy" <***@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:2c3eb444-4616-455a-b891-

Post by z***@netscape.net
Because the USN does does *EVERYTIHNG* the way *rudders* do things,
rather than the way logic does things. Which is also why Adaptive
A.I. RISC,
CD, DVD, HDTV, Optical Computers, fiber optics, Post Ford Batteries,
Microwave ovens,
Cruise Missiles, Laser-guided Bombs, Phalanx, GPS. Drones, and AUVs
were such instant
successes, not only the screwball USN, but also in their stoneage,
made for Battleships, shipyards too.
Thanks, ZZ, it all makes sense now.
BTW does ZZ qualify for the smn Long Service Medal for Gaviiformes yet?

--I am just thick Barry, I simply do not understand any of his posts.

That's not being thick. That's doing it right. As he himself states:

It wasn't supposed to make sense. Since that's why Drones work
so well were idiots, Air Farce tax-a-thoners, and rudders don't.

Andy B has speculated that ZZ is some sort of random generator . That is
possible, maybe an unfinished CIA project that lost its funding , or a
rejected prototype. I am trying not to think that A Toppan disappeared
about the same time ZZ appeared......

Regards,
Barry

[Jeff Crowell]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

Um, because they thought about it?

It is taught that way to avoid confusion between engine orders and
rudder orders. Engine orders are given using port/starboard,
rudder orders left and right, e.g. "Left full rudder. Port engine
ahead one third, starboard engine back one third," to twist the
ship.


Jeff

[William Hamblen]

Post by BF Lake
The USN gives helm orders by using left and right instead of port and
starboard like other navies do. How come?

Because. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/gen_order_30.htm

Bud