Worst damage in a battle, but survived?

[Gunter Krebs]

Hi,

which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?

Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

[Keith Willshaw]

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?
Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

If you are happy to include sections of a ship then the WW1 destroyers
HMS Zulu and HMS Nubian have to be contenders

Zulu hit a mine off Dover in 1916 and broke in half

The stern sank but the forward section was towed into
port and the stern section of HMS Nubian, which had been
torpedoed. The composite ship was named HMS Zubian

In WW2 USS Franklin was only brought home by the
extreme skill and courage of her damage control parties
after being hit by Japanese air attack in March 1945

Looking at the pictures they did an amazing job

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/13.htm

Keith

[Tom Vart]

I have two nominations:

HMS Kelly - captained by Lord Louis Mountbatten - Mined in late 1939,
repaired in the same yard she was built in - Torpedoed months later by
e'boats (amidships) in the North sea 1940, the explosion almost tore her in
two - awash to the gun'ls and under tow and attack for 90+ hours back to the
yard that built her, amazing bravery by all involved and good Damage control
to keep her afloat. there are some amazing photo's I viewed years ago, of
her hull in Dry dock at Hawthorne Leslie's Yard on the Tyne after her
docking, but no amount of 'Googling' seems to find them, anyone in the
collective know of the whereabouts?

The tanker SS Ohio in the 1941(?) PEDESTAL convoy to Malta, Bombed numerous
times over several days, Back broken, bows almost blown off, on fire,
abandoned and re-manned the following day, finally 'strapped' between 2
British destroyers and towed by a third into Valetta Harbour with her
valuable cargo of fuel for the besieged garrison.

Tom

Post by Keith Willshaw

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?
Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

If you are happy to include sections of a ship then the WW1 destroyers
HMS Zulu and HMS Nubian have to be contenders
Zulu hit a mine off Dover in 1916 and broke in half
The stern sank but the forward section was towed into
port and the stern section of HMS Nubian, which had been
torpedoed. The composite ship was named HMS Zubian
In WW2 USS Franklin was only brought home by the
extreme skill and courage of her damage control parties
after being hit by Japanese air attack in March 1945
Looking at the pictures they did an amazing job
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/13.htm
Keith

[BF Lake]

There was a destroyer or DE that was hit by five kamikaze aircraft

when it

was on radar picket during the invasion of Okinowa. I don't remember it's
name off the top, but it is now a museum ship in South Carolina someplace.

LAFFEY. Cdr Becton wrote a very good book about his ship. Hit April 16--
32 killed, 71 wounded after eight planes hit the ship (nine counting a
Corsair!) plus four bombs. Roscoe evaluates: "it seems safe to say that no
destroyer in WW2 absorbed more punishment and still cheated the
Executioner."

Regards,
Barry

[William Hughes]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:51 GMT, in sci.military.naval "BF Lake"

Post by BF Lake

There was a destroyer or DE that was hit by five kamikaze aircraft

when it

was on radar picket during the invasion of Okinowa. I don't remember it's
name off the top, but it is now a museum ship in South Carolina someplace.

LAFFEY. Cdr Becton wrote a very good book about his ship. Hit April 16--
32 killed, 71 wounded after eight planes hit the ship (nine counting a
Corsair!) plus four bombs. Roscoe evaluates: "it seems safe to say that no
destroyer in WW2 absorbed more punishment and still cheated the
Executioner."

THAT"S IT! That's the ship I could not recall. Thanks.


"That which does not kill us only makes us stronger." - Nietzsche

[Alan Lothian]

Post by William Hughes
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:30:51 GMT, in sci.military.naval "BF Lake"

Post by BF Lake

There was a destroyer or DE that was hit by five kamikaze aircraft

when it

was on radar picket during the invasion of Okinowa. I don't remember it's
name off the top, but it is now a museum ship in South Carolina someplace.

LAFFEY. Cdr Becton wrote a very good book about his ship. Hit April 16--
32 killed, 71 wounded after eight planes hit the ship (nine counting a
Corsair!) plus four bombs. Roscoe evaluates: "it seems safe to say that no
destroyer in WW2 absorbed more punishment and still cheated the
Executioner."

THAT"S IT! That's the ship I could not recall. Thanks.

_Laffey_ looks like the winner in this unhappy contest. But the
_Pedestal_ battle takes the honours, I believe. Good God, how did they
do it? Gratitude is still owed to the tired, nay, exhausted men who
brought their convoy through. SS Ohio must have been one hell of a
ship, in every sense of the words.

[Paul Austin]

Post by William Hughes

Post by BF Lake

There was a destroyer or DE that was hit by five kamikaze aircraft

when it

was on radar picket during the invasion of Okinowa. I don't remember it's
name off the top, but it is now a museum ship in South Carolina someplace.

LAFFEY. Cdr Becton wrote a very good book about his ship. Hit April 16--
32 killed, 71 wounded after eight planes hit the ship (nine

counting a

Post by William Hughes

Post by BF Lake
Corsair!) plus four bombs. Roscoe evaluates: "it seems safe to say that no
destroyer in WW2 absorbed more punishment and still cheated the
Executioner."

THAT"S IT! That's the ship I could not recall. Thanks.

Laffey served our nation for about 25 more years. She was part of our
DESRON in Mayport in the late sixties and early seventies.

[Keith Willshaw]

Post by BF Lake

There was a destroyer or DE that was hit by five kamikaze aircraft

when it

was on radar picket during the invasion of Okinowa. I don't remember it's
name off the top, but it is now a museum ship in South Carolina someplace.

LAFFEY. Cdr Becton wrote a very good book about his ship. Hit April 16--
32 killed, 71 wounded after eight planes hit the ship (nine counting a
Corsair!) plus four bombs. Roscoe evaluates: "it seems safe to say that no
destroyer in WW2 absorbed more punishment and still cheated the
Executioner."
Regards,
Barry

There's an account of the action and damage control parties work
by her skipper at

http://history.navy.mil/faqs/faq87-3r.htm

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

Post by Tom Vart
HMS Kelly - captained by Lord Louis Mountbatten - Mined in late 1939,
repaired in the same yard she was built in - Torpedoed months later by
e'boats (amidships) in the North sea 1940, the explosion almost tore her in
two - awash to the gun'ls and under tow and attack for 90+ hours back to the
yard that built her, amazing bravery by all involved and good Damage control
to keep her afloat. there are some amazing photo's I viewed years ago, of
her hull in Dry dock at Hawthorne Leslie's Yard on the Tyne after her
docking, but no amount of 'Googling' seems to find them, anyone in the
collective know of the whereabouts?
The tanker SS Ohio in the 1941(?) PEDESTAL convoy to Malta, Bombed numerous
times over several days, Back broken, bows almost blown off, on fire,
abandoned and re-manned the following day, finally 'strapped' between 2
British destroyers and towed by a third into Valetta Harbour with her
valuable cargo of fuel for the besieged garrison.
Tom

Trouble is the OP specified a warship, which SS Ohio wasnt

Keith

Keith

[Tom Vart]

"Keith Willshaw" <***@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:bejs3n$4kj$***@selma.aspentech.com...
<SNIP>

Post by Keith Willshaw
Trouble is the OP specified a warship, which SS Ohio wasnt
Keith

True Keith, a point that I had pondered on prior to posting, however I
couldn't leave such a gritty story on the shelf!

The Ohio story is a testament to the grit, determination and professionalism
of all wartime seamen and to the US Yards who built her.

Regards,

Tom

[hlg]

Post by Tom Vart
<SNIP>

Post by Keith Willshaw
Trouble is the OP specified a warship, which SS Ohio wasnt
Keith

True Keith, a point that I had pondered on prior to posting, however I
couldn't leave such a gritty story on the shelf!
The Ohio story is a testament to the grit, determination and

professionalism

Post by Tom Vart
of all wartime seamen and to the US Yards who built her.
Regards,

And they did sound the bugle call, "Alert", for her as she entered Valetta
harbour, as they would for a warship.

[Arved Sandstrom]

[ SNIP ]

Post by Tom Vart
The tanker SS Ohio in the 1941(?) PEDESTAL convoy to Malta, Bombed

numerous

Post by Tom Vart
times over several days, Back broken, bows almost blown off, on fire,
abandoned and re-manned the following day, finally 'strapped' between 2
British destroyers and towed by a third into Valetta Harbour with her
valuable cargo of fuel for the besieged garrison.

[ SNIP ]
Marge Piercey in "Gone to Soldiers: (Fawcett Crest, 1987) has a beautiful
account of this incident, albeit from the viewpoint of a fictionalized
character. It's about ten pages worth.
As I understand from that account minesweepers were also involved in

getting

the SS OHIO into Valletta Harbour.

To follow up my own post, here is a good account:
http://www.geocities.com/mike_buhagiar/ohio/ohio.html

That was a hell of a convoy. My maternal great-uncle did Med and Murmansk
convoys, so I have an interest.

AHS

[Joe Osman]

Post by Arved Sandstrom

[ SNIP ]

Post by Tom Vart
The tanker SS Ohio in the 1941(?) PEDESTAL convoy to Malta, Bombed

numerous

Post by Tom Vart
times over several days, Back broken, bows almost blown off, on fire,
abandoned and re-manned the following day, finally 'strapped' between 2
British destroyers and towed by a third into Valetta Harbour with her
valuable cargo of fuel for the besieged garrison.

[ SNIP ]
Marge Piercey in "Gone to Soldiers: (Fawcett Crest, 1987) has a beautiful
account of this incident, albeit from the viewpoint of a fictionalized
character. It's about ten pages worth.
As I understand from that account minesweepers were also involved in

getting

the SS OHIO into Valletta Harbour.

http://www.geocities.com/mike_buhagiar/ohio/ohio.html
That was a hell of a convoy. My maternal great-uncle did Med and Murmansk
convoys, so I have an interest.
AHS

Nicholas Montserrat's "Kappillan of Malta" is another fine
novel of the time.

Joe


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[Rich Johnson]

Post by Arved Sandstrom
That was a hell of a convoy. My maternal great-uncle did Med and Murmansk
convoys, so I have an interest.
AHS

Interestinly enough so did mine, I know a little about the Med stuff as
he was on Somerville's staff at the time, but I'd have to say that the
Russian trips are a matter of family ledgend now

[Tom Vart]

"Arved Sandstrom" <***@accesswave.ca> wrote in message news:2vhPa.40320$***@nnrp1.uunet.ca...

<SNIP>

As I understand from that account minesweepers were also involved in

getting

the SS OHIO into Valletta Harbour.
AHS

Arved,

I believe that several ships / tenders / Tugs (and the attending aircover)
sallied out from Malta to assist in the final part of her passage as she was
in such a dire state!
One hell of a story though!

Regards,

Tom

[William Hamblen]

The stern sank but the forward section [HMS Zulu] was towed into
port and the stern section of HMS Nubian, which had been
torpedoed. The composite ship was named HMS Zubian

One wonders whether, if the other halves of the ships had been saved,
they would have named the result HMS Nubilu.

[BF Lake]

Post by William Hamblen

The stern sank but the forward section [HMS Zulu] was towed into
port and the stern section of HMS Nubian, which had been
torpedoed. The composite ship was named HMS Zubian

One wonders whether, if the other halves of the ships had been saved,
they would have named the result HMS Nubilu.

4 piper USS BLAKELY after having her foward part blown off, got from the
bridge forward, the forward part of USS TAYLOR but kept the name BLAKELY.
Maybe they couldn't think of a combo name, or since DDs are named after real
people, they couldn't mix and match.

For a miracle recovery and damage control effort by the RCN , the ordeal of
HMS NABOB is a contender.

Regards,
Barry

[Arved Sandstrom]

Post by BF Lake

Post by William Hamblen

The stern sank but the forward section [HMS Zulu] was towed into
port and the stern section of HMS Nubian, which had been
torpedoed. The composite ship was named HMS Zubian

One wonders whether, if the other halves of the ships had been saved,
they would have named the result HMS Nubilu.

4 piper USS BLAKELY after having her foward part blown off, got from the
bridge forward, the forward part of USS TAYLOR but kept the name BLAKELY.
Maybe they couldn't think of a combo name, or since DDs are named after real
people, they couldn't mix and match.
For a miracle recovery and damage control effort by the RCN , the ordeal of
HMS NABOB is a contender.

With NABOB (interesting that she was HMS and not HMCS, although I do know
the story behind that) she was deemed beyond economical repair because of
the damage. Although she became mercantile later, and was only scrapped in
1977.

Evidently the worst part of the ordeal is that some fourteen bodies had to
be recovered after a month down in the bottom of the ship. Apparently the
dockyard workers refused. So the ship's officers got prepared with rum, and
did the recovery of the bodies.

AHS

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Arved Sandstrom
Evidently the worst part of the ordeal is that some fourteen bodies had to
be recovered after a month down in the bottom of the ship. Apparently the
dockyard workers refused. So the ship's officers got prepared with rum, and
did the recovery of the bodies.

This is in the finest traditions of the service. Bernard Thillaye, a
Belgian-born RCN officer late of the French Navy and my father's
divisional officer as an UNTiDy, sailed as a sub in convoy around the
Cape of Good Hope. He was in a cruiser (IIRC) which struck a mine.
Subs were piped to the bridge and each instructed to rope themselves
to rating and to descend into the damaged part of the ship to bring up
the dead, and not to stop until it was done. Weighing miners' lamps,
they did so. On completion, Thillaye reported back that they had
finished. He had been wearing whites, but was now was filthy with the
oil and everything else that was floating down there. He was promptly
read off and told to come back and make his report when he was
properly dressed.

[I did not get this second hand; I met Thillaye in the mess at
Kingston when he was teaching at the National Defence College. He was
no BS artist; perhaps because he was knew I was my father's son and an
officer, he was not at all reticent about some pretty frank
reminiscences.]
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Arved Sandstrom]

Post by Andrew Chaplin

Post by Arved Sandstrom
Evidently the worst part of the ordeal is that some fourteen bodies had to
be recovered after a month down in the bottom of the ship. Apparently the
dockyard workers refused. So the ship's officers got prepared with rum, and
did the recovery of the bodies.

This is in the finest traditions of the service. Bernard Thillaye, a
Belgian-born RCN officer late of the French Navy and my father's
divisional officer as an UNTiDy, sailed as a sub in convoy around the
Cape of Good Hope. He was in a cruiser (IIRC) which struck a mine.
Subs were piped to the bridge and each instructed to rope themselves
to rating and to descend into the damaged part of the ship to bring up
the dead, and not to stop until it was done. Weighing miners' lamps,
they did so. On completion, Thillaye reported back that they had
finished. He had been wearing whites, but was now was filthy with the
oil and everything else that was floating down there. He was promptly
read off and told to come back and make his report when he was
properly dressed.
[I did not get this second hand; I met Thillaye in the mess at
Kingston when he was teaching at the National Defence College. He was
no BS artist; perhaps because he was knew I was my father's son and an
officer, he was not at all reticent about some pretty frank
reminiscences.]

I am trying to figure out from MacPherson & Burgess as to what ship this
would have been.

In light of this thread, I have noted that HMS UGANDA, before it became HMCS
UGANDA, was in repairs for a year (?) after being directly hit by a 3000 lb
German glider bomb. Had to have been near the stern, as evidently only one
propellor out of four worked after that.

The River class destroyer SAGUENAY was torpedoed in the bow by the Italian
submarine ARGO west of Ireland, resulting in 21 dead, in 1940. On a
subsequent occasion, in 1942, she was rammed by a Panamanian freighter near
Newfoundland, and lost her stern when the depth charges exploded.

SASKATCHEWAN spent 6 months under repairs after bomb damage during a Malta
convoy.

The frigate MATANE spent 8 1/2 months in repairs after a glider bomb attack
off Normandy in 1944.

TEME lost 60 feet of her stern after a torpedo attack.

Any number of others...this is a sampling. All these ships survived, of
course - otherwise I wouldn't have included them. Macpherson & Burgess
describe every ship over 8 decades, so they are understandably terse, but
one can imagine that each of these incidents sort of qualifies as a
contender.

Can't figure out what ship that might have been that Thillaye was on,
though. It would be interesting to find out.

AHS

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Arved Sandstrom
I am trying to figure out from MacPherson & Burgess as to what ship this
would have been.
In light of this thread, I have noted that HMS UGANDA, before it became HMCS
UGANDA, was in repairs for a year (?) after being directly hit by a 3000 lb
German glider bomb. Had to have been near the stern, as evidently only one
propellor out of four worked after that.
The River class destroyer SAGUENAY was torpedoed in the bow by the Italian
submarine ARGO west of Ireland, resulting in 21 dead, in 1940. On a
subsequent occasion, in 1942, she was rammed by a Panamanian freighter near
Newfoundland, and lost her stern when the depth charges exploded.
SASKATCHEWAN spent 6 months under repairs after bomb damage during a Malta
convoy.
The frigate MATANE spent 8 1/2 months in repairs after a glider bomb attack
off Normandy in 1944.
TEME lost 60 feet of her stern after a torpedo attack.
Any number of others...this is a sampling. All these ships survived, of
course - otherwise I wouldn't have included them. Macpherson & Burgess
describe every ship over 8 decades, so they are understandably terse, but
one can imagine that each of these incidents sort of qualifies as a
contender.
Can't figure out what ship that might have been that Thillaye was on,
though. It would be interesting to find out.

He served with the RN from '40 to '46 or so. He figured (correctly)
that his options as a bilingual officer were more varied in the RCN
than the RN and so transferred. Had he not been involved in a messy
divorce (that also occasioned messy divorces by other naval officers)
he might have made flag rank, I suppose. He was an intelligent, suave,
even charismatic gent. I thought Barry might have met him.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Arved Sandstrom]

"Andrew Chaplin" <***@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in message news:***@yourfinger.rogers.com...
[ SNIP ]

Post by Andrew Chaplin
He served with the RN from '40 to '46 or so. He figured (correctly)
that his options as a bilingual officer were more varied in the RCN
than the RN and so transferred. Had he not been involved in a messy
divorce (that also occasioned messy divorces by other naval officers)
he might have made flag rank, I suppose. He was an intelligent, suave,
even charismatic gent. I thought Barry might have met him.

I may have missed a few, but cruisers AURORA, BELFAST and SCYLLA all took
mine damage in the RN during WW2. It could have been one of them. (Going off
Conway 1922-1946).

AHS

[Chris Manteuffel]

Post by Arved Sandstrom
I may have missed a few, but cruisers AURORA, BELFAST and SCYLLA all took
mine damage in the RN during WW2. It could have been one of them. (Going off
Conway 1922-1946).

Force K ran into an Italian minefield on December 19, 1941. Neptune
and Kandahar sunk (Kandahar scuttled by a torpedo from Jupiter),
Aurora and Penelope limped back to Malta.

Chris Manteuffel

[Andrew Chaplin]

Post by Arved Sandstrom
Can't figure out what ship that might have been that Thillaye was on,
though. It would be interesting to find out.

Further to my last, I googled on his name and came up with this. Nice
to see the old sea dog is staying healthy. I did not realize he was
two years my father's junior.
http://www.okuyamaupk.com/jmac_karate2.php
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Gunter Krebs]

Ooops, i forgot my nomination:

Battlecruiser S.M.S. Seydlitz after the battle of Jutland:
With hits from 21 shells 12" or larger and one torpedo, she came home
with more than 5300 tons of water in her hull and all five main gun
turrets were out of action. Her bow had less than 2.5m of freeboard
foreward when she came home under own power.

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?
Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

[Peter Skelton]

Post by Gunter Krebs
With hits from 21 shells 12" or larger and one torpedo, she came home
with more than 5300 tons of water in her hull and all five main gun
turrets were out of action. Her bow had less than 2.5m of freeboard
foreward when she came home under own power.

Without denigrating the ship's performance, wasn't she towed in
the last bit?
____

Peter Skelton

[Gunter Krebs]

Post by Peter Skelton

Post by Gunter Krebs
With hits from 21 shells 12" or larger and one torpedo, she came home
with more than 5300 tons of water in her hull and all five main gun
turrets were out of action. Her bow had less than 2.5m of freeboard
foreward when she came home under own power.

Without denigrating the ship's performance, wasn't she towed in
the last bit?

I'm not sure. At leas she made most of the trip home under own power.
This website has some images of the damage sustained at Jutland
http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_bc_seydlitz.htm

Gunter Krebs

[Matt Clonfero]

Post by Peter Skelton

Post by Gunter Krebs
With hits from 21 shells 12" or larger and one torpedo, she came home
with more than 5300 tons of water in her hull and all five main gun
turrets were out of action. Her bow had less than 2.5m of freeboard
foreward when she came home under own power.

Without denigrating the ship's performance, wasn't she towed in
the last bit?

Didn't she settle on the bottom at one stage?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

Post by Matt Clonfero

Post by Peter Skelton
Without denigrating the ship's performance, wasn't she towed in
the last bit?

Didn't she settle on the bottom at one stage?

Stuck at the river mouth coming in. Very much a matter of personal
preference whether you call it "grounded entering harbour" or
"sank in river mouth, salvaged in short order". A lot of good
work and a lot more luck was involved getting her home, IMO.

[William Hughes]

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?

Someone else has already mentioned USS Franklin (CV-13). I recall a story about
a destroyer radar picket at Okinawa that survived something like seven kamikaze
attacks. Was that USS Blue?


"That which does not kill us only makes us stronger." - Nietzsche

[raymond o'hara]

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?
Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

the dd uss shaw , it was blown in half at pearl harbor , everything in front
of the stack was gone but she was rebuilt and served throughout the war .

[William Hamblen]

Post by Gunter Krebs
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?

HMS Belfast had her back broken by a magnetic mine and was a candidate
for the scrapyard when it was decided to repair her instead.

SMS Seydlitz in WWI qualifies as a ship that was nearly moribund, but
returned to port and was repaired.

USS Franklin was nearly burned out by a bomb hit but was repaired. She
went right into reserve and never saw active service again, however.

[Jtimes2]

Possibly the aircraft carrier USS Franklin, in 1945?

A number of the British ships involved with sinking the Graf Spee were pretty
beat up too. IIRC, one of them had to be beached in order to prevent it's loss.

I'm hesitant to bring up this ships name in this newsgroup, but the USS Liberty
sustained a great deal of damage.

The Soviet battleship Marat was battered constantly throughout WWII but never
sunk.

Finally, define "survived"? If you count the battlewagons that were pulled up
out of Pearl Harbor's mud and refitted, and returned to action, I guess they'd
take the cake.

[Dale Farmer]

Post by Jtimes2
Possibly the aircraft carrier USS Franklin, in 1945?
A number of the British ships involved with sinking the Graf Spee were pretty
beat up too. IIRC, one of them had to be beached in order to prevent it's loss.
I'm hesitant to bring up this ships name in this newsgroup, but the USS Liberty
sustained a great deal of damage.
The Soviet battleship Marat was battered constantly throughout WWII but never
sunk.
Finally, define "survived"? If you count the battlewagons that were pulled up
out of Pearl Harbor's mud and refitted, and returned to action, I guess they'd
take the cake.

I'd say the pearl harbor ships would not count. They were sunk and were raised
in salvage operations. The Shaw, sunk in the drydock it was sitting in when it
was bombed, it think falls into that salvaged category as well.

--Dale

[Nik Simpson]

Marat was sunk by German Stukas off Kronshtadt on the 23rd September
1939. But the ship was in shallow water and was raised and was used
as a floating Battery

Are you sure about the date, that would only have been a month after the
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and almost two years before Germany attacked Russia?

[Dott. PIergiorgio]

Post by Gunter Krebs
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?

Without any doubt, S.M.S. Seydlitz during the Jutland.

Best regards from Italy.

[Matt Wiser]

Post by Gunter Krebs
Hi,
which warship received the worst damage in a
battle, but survived?
Gunter Krebs
http://usnavy.skyrocket.de

Here's several examples from the USN in 1944-45:

1) USS Houston-namesake of the cruiser sunk at Sunda Strait: two Japanese
aerial torps off Formosa in Oct.'44, she took 6,500 tons of water in her,
was almost abandoned, but the crew managed to save her and she returned in
time for Okinawa and the final campaign against Japan.
2) USS Franklin (CV-13) two 550 lb. bombs from a Judy off of Kyushu in March
1945-752 men KIA after massive explosions and fire from armed and fueled
aircraft. Ship nearly abandoned and in fact, all but firefighters did leave,
but the ship was saved, and she sailed 13,000 miles to NY Navy Yard for repairs.
Never again used as a carrier.
3) USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) Hit by Kamikaze off of Okinawa May'45. 396 men
KIA-same result as Franklin. Knocked out of the war, repaired but not used
as carrier again.
4) USS Laffey-namesake of destroyer sunk at 1st Guadalcanal-hit by multiple
Kamikazes and bombs off Okinawa on a radar picket station. Only four 20mm
guns still operable. Repaired, returned to service, and now a war memorial
at Patriot's Point, SC.
Several other examples of DDs and Destroyer-minelayer/minesweepers hit off
Okinawa with stories similar to Laffey's.Not all repaired and back in service,
though.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Dott. PIergiorgio]

Post by Matt Wiser
1) USS Houston-namesake of the cruiser sunk at Sunda Strait: two Japanese
aerial torps off Formosa in Oct.'44, she took 6,500 tons of water in her,
was almost abandoned, but the crew managed to save her and she returned in
time for Okinawa and the final campaign against Japan.

First, of all, AFAIK the USN don't name ships after another ships, so the
second Houston was also named after the city in TX.

Second, and more important, the 2nd Houston don't reenter service in time
for the end of war. I read the history of this feat of DC, published by the
USNI, "the battle to save the Houston", whose I recommend without doubt.
The book ends with the Houston restored and making visit to the name city
shortly after the war.

Best regards from Italy.

[Michael P. Reed]

Post by Dott. PIergiorgio
First, of all, AFAIK the USN don't name ships after another ships, so the
second Houston was also named after the city in TX.

Actually, the Navy does.

[Keith Willshaw]

Post by Dott. PIergiorgio

Post by Matt Wiser
1) USS Houston-namesake of the cruiser sunk at Sunda Strait: two Japanese
aerial torps off Formosa in Oct.'44, she took 6,500 tons of water in her,
was almost abandoned, but the crew managed to save her and she returned in
time for Okinawa and the final campaign against Japan.

First, of all, AFAIK the USN don't name ships after another ships, so the
second Houston was also named after the city in TX.

Actually they do, even foreign ships on occasion (USS Canberra)

Keith

[Arved Sandstrom]

"Joel Shepherd" <***@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:bepgdq$jhs$***@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
[ SNIP ]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).
o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.
o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Well, Gunter just said "survived". I guess that covers any of the above,
depending on your perspective. To me, it means the ship didn't sink. But it
didn't necessarily have mobility, and may have needed assistance.

AHS

[Vince Brannigan]

[ SNIP ]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).
o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.
o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Well, Gunter just said "survived". I guess that covers any of the above,
depending on your perspective. To me, it means the ship didn't sink. But it
didn't necessarily have mobility, and may have needed assistance.

Ok lets change the rules, snce any hulk that can be towed home can be
completely rebuilt. What is the worst pounding a ship took and was
still able to engage the enemy?

Vince

[David Henderson]

Post by Vince Brannigan
Ok lets change the rules, snce any hulk that can be towed home can be
completely rebuilt. What is the worst pounding a ship took and was
still able to engage the enemy?

What do you mean by pounding? ;-) Barrage rained upon it, or damage
sustained?

If the former, what about BISMARCK? WARSPITE after chasing her tail
at Jutland? VICTORIOUS (I think) after the Kamikaze hits?

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

[ SNIP ]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).
o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.
o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Well, Gunter just said "survived". I guess that covers any of the above,
depending on your perspective. To me, it means the ship didn't sink. But it
didn't necessarily have mobility, and may have needed assistance.

Could we subdivide this according to the RN's reckoning of DC priority,
and consider by turns the ships which took the worst hammering and came
out it able to:

1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?

Onslow at Barents Sea might, I suppose, be some kind of contender for
3 - hammered lavishly, but still afloat, moving and an active hazard to
the enemy throughout the action..

[Dave Schrader]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

[ SNIP ]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).
o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.
o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Well, Gunter just said "survived". I guess that covers any of the above,
depending on your perspective. To me, it means the ship didn't sink. But it
didn't necessarily have mobility, and may have needed assistance.

Could we subdivide this according to the RN's reckoning of DC priority,
and consider by turns the ships which took the worst hammering and came
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?
Onslow at Barents Sea might, I suppose, be some kind of contender for
3 - hammered lavishly, but still afloat, moving and an active hazard to
the enemy throughout the action..
--
Andy Breen ~

Welcome back (not that you know who I am)

Where might I learn more of this valiant ship? Although I expose my
ignorance, what navies do I have to look for?

Dave Schrader

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

Post by Dave Schrader

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?
Onslow at Barents Sea might, I suppose, be some kind of contender for
3 - hammered lavishly, but still afloat, moving and an active hazard to
the enemy throughout the action..

Where might I learn more of this valiant ship? Although I expose my
ignorance, what navies do I have to look for?

RN emergency war programme destroyer, part of theconvoy escort screen
at the battle of the Barents Sea in (IIRC) when a parcel of destroyers
held off Hipper and (IIRC, again) Luetzow and some other stuff. Onslow
took some very heavy hits, mainly 8" I think though perhaps an 11"
as well and was, going from the pictures, a proper shambles afterwards
but was still in action all the way through. Eventually the German heavies
decided they'd had enough and went home before the covering force could
come down and join in.

In terms of "float and move", though not the full FMF, Seydlitz after
Jutland might be a strong contender, even if she stuck on the bar going
into the Jade. It was only *bloody* good damage control that got her home
at all (and unreasonably good luck that no-one shot at her in the night,
almost anything could have finished her, even a well-aimed haddock).

[BF Lake]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?

RCN ships reflected this priority system in their electrical switchboards.
The circuit breakers etc were colour- coded for that priority in restoring
power. I think it was red, blue, and white, but can't remember details. I
suspect the USN and other navies do the same and that it is not strictly an
RN thing. Not sure it always makes sense for every scenario where the
enemy is still "present" --you may be floating and stopped, but need to keep
shooting.

A software glitch in the Tribal updates made the gun unable to fire when
speed input was zero. This was Not the result of the F,M,F priority system
but was some computer nerd not "understanding the customer's requirements."
It got fixed. (It was ISTR, the anchoring while bombarding scenario that
exposed the glitch--I heard about it all second hand)

BTW for Andrew B--I hope you handed back your Smart Ticket now that you are
back to F, M, F <G>

Regards,
Barry

[BF Lake]

USN had power prioritized as Critical, Vital, and non-vital. Stuff

that was

Memory twinge! Vital and non-vital power. Pretty sure there were three
though, and the knobs on the switchboard were coloured accordingly. ISTR a
separate switchboard called "IC&FC" or somesuch that had combat things on
it. Each emergency Diesel had its own little switchboard too but I can't
remember if it was for all three priorities or just vital stuff in its local
area. I should have said the priorities weren't just for restoring power ,
but for allocating load when you were down a generator or so. There were
also those big black cables you could string along the flats for "casualty
power" (providing experience for RV ownership <G>)

Regards,
Barry

[Howard Berkowitz]

Post by BF Lake

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?

RCN ships reflected this priority system in their electrical
switchboards.
The circuit breakers etc were colour- coded for that priority in restoring
power. I think it was red, blue, and white, but can't remember details. I
suspect the USN and other navies do the same and that it is not strictly an
RN thing. Not sure it always makes sense for every scenario where the
enemy is still "present" --you may be floating and stopped, but need to keep
shooting.

USN had power prioritized as Critical, Vital, and non-vital. Stuff
that was
judged to be critical had automagic switch boxes connected to two
different
power distribution busses. These boxes would go to the alternate power
bus
if their primary power buss lost power.
Critical things were things like fire pumps, fire control system, the
400hz
power system ( which also had a battery bank. ) certain engineering
systems
like fuel and feed water pumps, a couple of CIC consoles. Vital was the
radars, the rest of CIC power, sonar systems, most of the engineering
systems, chilled water loop and so on. Non-vital was everything else.

In highly networked environments, we often have a three-level hierarchy
as well (UPS+generator, generator, commercial power only).

One major university learned the hard way that the electronic lock for
the power control room MUST be on the UPS (and maybe its own battery as
well).

[Dave Schrader]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

Post by Dave Schrader
Where might I learn more of this valiant ship? Although I expose my
ignorance, what navies do I have to look for?

RN emergency war programme destroyer, part of theconvoy escort screen
at the battle of the Barents Sea in (IIRC) when a parcel of destroyers
held off Hipper and (IIRC, again) Luetzow and some other stuff. Onslow
took some very heavy hits, mainly 8" I think though perhaps an 11"
as well and was, going from the pictures, a proper shambles afterwards
but was still in action all the way through. Eventually the German heavies
decided they'd had enough and went home before the covering force could
come down and join in.
Andy Breen ~

thanks

[Arved Sandstrom]

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" <***@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message news:bepr81$emki$***@central.aber.ac.uk...
[ SNIP ]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Could we subdivide this according to the RN's reckoning of DC priority,
and consider by turns the ships which took the worst hammering and came
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?
Onslow at Barents Sea might, I suppose, be some kind of contender for
3 - hammered lavishly, but still afloat, moving and an active hazard to
the enemy throughout the action..

I'd say many of the ships from sailing days are active contenders for any of
the three categories. If we include them, then there are many more
possibilities. For example, SANTISSIMA TRINIDAD at Cape St Vincent took some
pretty heavy mauling (generally falling into the 2 category, with some
dismasting). The fire that SANTA ANNA took from ROYAL SOVEREIGN at Trafalgar
was brutal also. In that latter battle BUCENTAURE also took terrible damage.
The list goes on, in various engagements.

AHS

[Brent McKee]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

[ SNIP ]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).
o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The

"PIergiorgio"

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

Rule.
o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Well, Gunter just said "survived". I guess that covers any of the above,
depending on your perspective. To me, it means the ship didn't sink. But it
didn't necessarily have mobility, and may have needed assistance.

Could we subdivide this according to the RN's reckoning of DC

priority,

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
and consider by turns the ships which took the worst hammering and came
1. Float
2. Float and move
3. Float, move and fight?
Onslow at Barents Sea might, I suppose, be some kind of contender for
3 - hammered lavishly, but still afloat, moving and an active hazard to
the enemy throughout the action..

Of the Pearl Harbor ships then, perhaps special mention should be made
of Nevada. After all she took a real pounding but was not only afloat
but heading for the harbour mouth until wiser heads prevailed and she
was ordered to ground off Hospital Point lest she be sunk at the
harbour entrance. She certainly shouldn't be counted as sunk just
because of that. But where exactly should she be placed
(sentimentally I feel that she shouldn't have been placed at Bikini
Atoll but that's another discussion).

--
Brent McKee

To reply by email, please remove the capital letters (S and N) from
the email address

"If we cease to judge this world, we may find ourselves, very quickly,
in one which is infinitely worse."
- Margaret Atwood

"Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more
constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of
openness to novelty. "
- Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002)

[John Lansford]

Post by Brent McKee
Of the Pearl Harbor ships then, perhaps special mention should be made
of Nevada. After all she took a real pounding but was not only afloat
but heading for the harbour mouth until wiser heads prevailed and she
was ordered to ground off Hospital Point lest she be sunk at the
harbour entrance. She certainly shouldn't be counted as sunk just
because of that. But where exactly should she be placed
(sentimentally I feel that she shouldn't have been placed at Bikini
Atoll but that's another discussion).

Nevada did slowly sink to the bottom of the harbor, despite their best
efforts. She had been so heavily divebombed by the second wave of
planes that her seams came loose and the water intake couldn't be
stopped.

California also had this happen to her, but in her case the inspection
covers between the triple bottoms had been removed and the ship slowly
flooded from the torpedo hits.

John Lansford

The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/

[Dott. PIergiorgio]

o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.

This aren't my rule; Is the rule of the Italian Naval historian, whose
consider the end of the Conte di Cavour at Taranto Night against the
official wiew of the Italian Navy whose consider the Cavour lost at the
armistice, when was captured by the germans at Trieste, where was in
process of being repaired.

I don't want to raise a flame, but seems to me more fair this rule, whose in
the US wasn't used, so everyone consider only one BB lost at PH (the AZ)
where here in Italy consider also the OK lost (The main Italian work on
Pacific war, by Alberto Santoni indeed count the OK as lost at PH). Hope
everyone take this note easy without polemic as I don't write this without
polemic attitude)

Best regards from Italy.

[William Hughes]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:39:26 GMT, in sci.military.naval "Dott. PIergiorgio"

Post by Dott. PIergiorgio

Post by Matt Wiser
1) USS Houston-namesake of the cruiser sunk at Sunda Strait: two Japanese
aerial torps off Formosa in Oct.'44, she took 6,500 tons of water in her,
was almost abandoned, but the crew managed to save her and she returned in
time for Okinawa and the final campaign against Japan.

First, of all, AFAIK the USN don't name ships after another ships, so the
second Houston was also named after the city in TX.

CV-10 was renamed from Bon Homme Richard (name later used for CV-31) to Yorktown
26 Sep 42. CV-5 Yorktown was lost 7 Jun 42 at Midway.

CV-12 USS Hornet was named after CV-8 USS Hornet in Oct 42 at the request of the
shipyard crew that was building her. She was originally to be named Kearsarge
(name used for CV-33). CV-8 was lost 27 Oct 42 at Santa Cruz.

CV-16 Lexington was laid down as Cabot (name later used for CVL-28) and renamed
16 Jun 42. CV-2 Lexington was sunk at Coral Sea on 8 May 42.

CV-18 started out as Oriskany (name later used for CV-34) and was renamed Wasp
on 13 Nov 42, after the loss of CV-7 Wasp on 15 Sep 42 near Guadalcanal.

CV-37 was renamed from Valley Forge (used for CV-45) to Princeton on 21 Nov 44,
after the loss of CVL-23 USS Princeton on 24 Oct 44.



"That which does not kill us only makes us stronger." - Nietzsche

[Dott. PIergiorgio]

Post by William Hughes
CV-10 was renamed from Bon Homme Richard (name later used for CV-31) to
Yorktown 26 Sep 42. CV-5 Yorktown was lost 7 Jun 42 at Midway.

Thank you for mentioning this cases. After all, naming ships after ships
aren't a bad idea, but here in euruope, navies with centuries or millennia
(Italy, Greece) of history indded are plenty of names to use ;)

Best regards from Italy.

[Richard Bell]

Post by Dott. PIergiorgio

Post by Matt Wiser
1) USS Houston-namesake of the cruiser sunk at Sunda Strait: two
Japanese aerial torps off Formosa in Oct.'44, she took 6,500 tons
of water in her, was almost abandoned

First, of all, AFAIK the USN don't name ships after another ships,
so the second Houston was also named after the city in TX.

In the strictest sense this may be true, but there are numerous
examples of ship name selection being strongly influenced by the fate
of the predecessor.
Example: <http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cv10.htm>
"The fourth Yorktown (CV-10) was laid down on 1 December 1941 at
Newport News, Va., by the Newport News Shipbuilding & Drydock Co. as
Bon Homme Richard; renamed Yorktown on 26 September 1942..."

Post by Dott. PIergiorgio
Second, and more important, the 2nd Houston don't reenter service
in time for the end of war.

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).

Most of the raised ships at Pearl Habor did not suffer that much damage,
they merely took hits below the waterline, while ill prepared for flooding.
Also, they were SUNK; whereas, the SMS Seydlitz took a severe pounding,
shipped several thousand tonnes of water from uncontrolled flooding, and
counterflooded a couple thousand more tonnes of water to keep the vessel
in some approximation of trim.

I think that the prime indicator of survival of a damaged ship is that
it remains bouyant, which excludes all of the refloated vessels.

o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.

I can see no particular need for this one, except to exclude vessels that
remained bouyant, but were never returned to service.

o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

This is a harder one to enforce, as most ships only have to not be sunk
outright by their aerial or submarine attacker, which is unable to
remount an attack; although, it does improve the case for the Seydlitz.

Part of the reason for the Seydlitz's endurance of extreme hardship was due
to her active roll damping system that used large pumps to move water between
sets of saddle tanks. The handy side effect of being able to also quickly
pump large amounts of water out of the ship, entirely, was used to good effect.

;-)
--
Joel.

[Matt Clonfero]

Okay, so will you, or someone, please publish the unpublished rules to
o Salvaged != Survived (rules out, for example, ships sunk then
raised at Pearl Harbor).

Where do you draw the line? SMS Seydlitz settled on the bottom outside
harbour, but was refloated...

o Must return to action (in the same conflict?) - The "PIergiorgio"
Rule.

Hmm. Better to say "Returns to active duty", since through chance a
survivor might not have another combat encounter.

o Must retire from combat area under own power - Hey, if you can
make rules up, so can I.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt

[Joel Shepherd]

Post by Gunter Krebs
which warship received the worst damage in a battle, but survived?

Seydlitz came to mind but my vote would be West Virginia. The ship
was pulverized. I recall reading that she was considered not worth
repair in any logical sense. She was rebuilt only because of the
potential "spite factor" if she could ever return fire.

If you could find a reference for that, I'd be interested. I have a
hard time believing that in 1942 (when most of the Pearl Harbor
survivors, including Wee-Vee, were refloated and patched up) that the
Pacific Fleet felt it had time and resources to repair ships for spite
factor only.