Discussion:
Top 10 naval novels?
(too old to reply)
r***@gmail.com
2005-05-18 15:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...

Bye

Raffaele
Jack Linthicum
2005-05-18 15:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Tall Ships Books stocks a broad selection of nautical fiction written
by American and British authors. Many authors in the genre are
represented below.

DAVID DONACHIE
David Donachie is the author of a new naval fiction series about
British privateer Harry Ludlow, which takes place in the 1790s.
Donachie has also written novels about Lord Admiral Horatio Nelson and
Lady Emma Hamilton, and is currently working on a new work of
sea-fiction.

JAMES E. FENDER
James E. Fender is the author of the Geoffrey Frost novels, which are
set against the American Revolution at sea.

C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.

ALEXANDER FULLERTON
Alexander Fullerton is the author of the Nicholas Everard novels about
the Royal Navy in the twentieth-century, and the Rosie Ewing novels,
featuring a Special Operations Executive, who works for the Allies
behind German lines in France during the Second World War.

ALEXANDER KENT
English author Alexander Kent - a pen name for Douglas Reeman - is the
creator of the popular Richard and Adam Bolitho naval adventures,
including the latest, Man of War.

DEAN KING
Dean King is the author of Patrick O'Brian - A Life Revealed, two
companion volumes to the O'Brian naval series, featuring Jack Aubrey
and Stephen Maturin, and is the Heart of Oak Sea Classics series
editor.

DEWEY LAMBDIN
Dewey Lambdin is the author of the Alan Lewrie Naval Adventures, which
follows Lewrie's career from his post as midshipman upward in the Royal
Navy during Horatio Nelson's time.

ROBERT MACOMBER
Robert Macomber is a nationally recognized author who writes and
lectures on maritime history. Macomber's Peter Wake naval adventures
follow the career of the US Navy officer, beginning with the Civil War
and carrying forward through the late nineteenth century.

FREDERICK MARRYAT
Captain Frederick Marryat, who served in the British Royal Navy in the
early 1800's, is considered to have originated the nautical fiction
genre.

JAN NEEDLE
Jan Needle is the author of the William bentley Sea Officer novels, set
during the Age of Sail in the British Royal Navy.

JAMES L. NELSON
James L. Nelson is the author of two nautical fiction series - The
Revolution at Sea Saga and the Brethren of the Coast. Nelson's latest
novel, Glory in the Name, is set against against the Civil War at sea.

PATRICK O'BRIAN
Patrick O'Brian created the high-acclaimed Jack Aubrey-Stephen Maturin
series about the early nineteenth-century Royal Navy and the Napoleonic
wars.

ELISABETH OGILVIE
Down East author Elisabeth Ogilvie created the Bennett's Island series
about life surrounded by the sea off Maine's shores.

MARCUS PALLISER
Marcus Palliser, who lived and wrote in Cornwall on the southwest
England coast, was the author of a new seafaring series set around
1700, featuring young Englishman Matthew Loftus.

DUDLEY POPE
Dudley Pope created the Nicholas Ramage series, which take place in the
Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars.

DAVID POYER
David Poyer is the author of the Dan Lenson novels, which are set
against the modern United States Navy.

DOUGLAS REEMAN
Douglas Reeman, a veteran of British naval service aboard destroyers
and motor torpedo boats, has written nearly three dozen novels about
the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. As Alexander Kent, he is the creator
of the Bolitho Saga.

JULIAN STOCKWIN
Englishman Julian Stockwin is the author of the new best-selling naval
fiction series about Thomas Paine Kydd, which is set against the Royal
Navy during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.

CHARLES WHITE
Charle's White has launched the new Fairaday and Marlborough naval
fiction series, which begins during the American Revolution.

WILLIAM WHITE
American William H. White is the author of the War of 1812 Trilogy,
featuring Isaac Biggs of Marblehead, Massachusetts. His newest work,
The Greater the Honor, is a novel about Midshipman Oliver Baldwin and
the Barbary Wars.

RICHARD WOODMAN
English author Richard Woodman is the author of the Nathaniel
Drinkwater series, which took place during the American Revolution and
Napoleonic wars, and the William Kite novels. He has also written a
large body of nautical fiction and maritime/naval history.
Sarah H
2005-05-18 16:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
DOUGLAS REEMAN
Douglas Reeman, a veteran of British naval service aboard destroyers
and motor torpedo boats, has written nearly three dozen novels about
the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. As Alexander Kent, he is the creator
of the Bolitho Saga.
One of dad's favourite authors about 20 years ago and the usual
Xmas/birthday request for either a Reeman novel or the latest Wilbur
Smith (non-naval) novel. Had I known Reeman wrote under another name
it would have made dad's birthdays even easier to shop for! Strangely
dad has lost interest in Reeman, but is an avid reader of Wilbur Smith,
this seemed to coincide with him buying his own floaty thing and
playing Swallows & Amazons with his mates (dad is 70, his usual crew is
an 80 year old). Dr Andy Breen will be familiar with my description of
dad playing Swallows & Amazons as dad kindly provided me with a
nautical chart of a local waterway to scan and send to Andy.

(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)

--
Sarah H
r***@aol.com
2005-05-18 18:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
Post by Jack Linthicum
DOUGLAS REEMAN
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
--
Sarah H
SNIP

You're in luck, Sarah!

The first Alan Lewrie novel's first scene has his father finding him in
bed with his half-sister. Things just get better from there...

"The King's Coat by Dewey Lambdin -- First book in this swashbuckling
series in which a likable young Alan Lerie discovers that he's born to
be a sailor both in action at sea and in lewd intervals ashore."


This is one of our favorites amongst the array of historical sea
fiction sagas. They are bold, funny, and exciting adventures. Be
prepared for a different kind of hero, though. Alan Lewrie is a
scandalous young rake whose amorous adventures ashore lead to his being
shipped off to the Navy. He finds that he is a born sailor, although
life at sea is a stark contrast to the London social whirl to which he
had become accustomed. As his career advances, he finds the life of a
naval officer suits him. He finds himself in one scrape after another,
often of his own making, but in true "swashbuckling" fashion manages to
come out of them with flying colors (and lessons learned!) Lambdin
writes authoritatively of ships and life at sea, but he also tells a
rousing, high-paced adventure story.

The King's Coat The first of the Alan Lewrie naval adventures is set in
1780 near the conclusion of the Revolutionary War. The
seventeen-year-old Lewrie is a brash, rebellious young libertine. So
much so that his callous father believes a bit of navy discipline will
turn the boy around. Fresh aboard the 'Ariadne', Midshipman Lewrie
heads for the war-torn Americas, finding - rather unexpectedly -
that he is a born sailor, equally at home with the randy pleasures of
the port and the raging battles on the high seas.

The French Admiral Here is the "missing Lambdin", the second in the
Alan Lewrie series which has been out-of-print in hardcover and now
published for the first time in paperback. Here we join Lewrie at the
siege of Yorktown, near the end of the Revolutionary War. Pounded by
the American forces on land and the deadly warships of their French
allies at sea, the once-proud city is aflame and near ruin. The Royal
Navy, with heavily-armed frigates, is poised to break through the
French blackade. Aboard HMS 'Desperate', Midshipman Lewrie sets his
gunners to their lethal work firing broadsides of 24-pound shot at the
enemy vessels.

The King's Commission Number three in the series. Set in 1782, Lewrie
finds himself commissioned first officer of the brig o'war 'Shrike',
off to patrol the North American coast and attempt to bring the
Muskogees and Seminoles onto the British side against the American
rebels.

The King's Privateer Number four in the series. Back from war in the
Americas, young navy veteran Alan Lewrie finds London pure pleasure.
Then, at Plymouth he boards the trading ship 'Telesto', to find out why
merchantmen are disappearing in the East Indies. Between the pungent
shores of Calcutta and teeming Canton, Lewrie-reunited with his
scoundrel father-discovers a young French captain, backed by an
armada of Mindanaon pirates, on a plundering rampage. While treaties
tie the navy's hands, a King's privateer is free to plunge into the
fire and blood of a dirty little war on the high South China Sea.

Gun Ketch Number five in the series. A fighter, rogue, and ladies man,
Alan Lewrie has done the unthinkable and gotten himself hitched-to a
woman and a ship! The woman is Caroline Chiswick. The ship is the gun
ketch 'Alacrity', bound for the Bahamas and a bloody game of cat and
mouse with the pirates who ply the lunatic winds there. Sure that a
powerful Bahamian merchant is behind a scourge of piracy, Lewrie runs
afoul of the Royal Governor-who holds the most precious hostage of
all.

H.M.S. Cockerel Number six in the Alan Lewrie Naval Adventure series. A
farmer, a bloody farmer! Knee-deep in dung and leagues from the nearest
port, Alan Lewrie, swashbuckling naval warrior turned family man, longs
for battle. Called to the HMS 'Cockerel', a sleek frigate captained by
a malaria-stricken tyrant, First Officer Lewrie soon vaults to command,
taking 'cockerel' from the lush pleasures of the Kingdom of Naples to a
smoking cauldron called Toulon. There, and outnumbered coalition of
former enemies is being drawn into a terrible land-sea battle against
the revolutionary French.

A King's Commander Number seven in the series. It is 1794, and
Commander Alan Lewrie is at the helm of the H.M.S. 'Jester'. But when
Lewrie reaches the island of Corsica he gets orders for which even he
is not prepared: lure his archenemy, French commander Guillaume
Chondas, into battle-and personally strike him dead.

Jester's Fortune Number eight in the series. In 1796 the British Navy
hopes to contain Napoleon's conquest of Italy and the Austrian Empire
by controlling the Adriatic Sea. Commander Lewrie and his sloop HMS
'Jester', in a squadron of only four ships, is in the thick of it.
Spread too thinly along the Croatian coast, the squadron has warily
enlisted the aid of Serbian pirates, with results that put them in even
greater peril.

The King's Captain This is number nine in the Alan Lewrie series.
This highly entertaining adventure has Lewrie being promoted for his
role in the Battle of Cape St. Vincent and awarded command of a new
frigate. His future seems assured, but before he's even had a chance
to settle into his new role, mutiny blazes through the fleet, and
Lewrie finds himself battling an old enemy for control of this ship.
The problems that await him on his own ship, however, make him wish he
was back under the Spanish guns, and the sudden reappearance of an old
enemy has Lewrie fighting not just for his command, but for his life.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/27L339FY3Z2A7/104-4393820-3481559




Now you no longer have an excuse!
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-18 18:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@aol.com
Post by Sarah H
Post by Jack Linthicum
DOUGLAS REEMAN
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
You're in luck, Sarah!
The first Alan Lewrie novel's first scene has his father finding him
in bed with his half-sister. Things just get better from there...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/27L339FY3Z
2A7/104-4393820-3481559
Now you no longer have an excuse!
Ta muchly - will give this a try after payday!
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
Sarah H
2005-05-19 06:00:45 UTC
Permalink
The first Alan Lewrie novel's first scene ...
Just ordered it. Book 3 got a good write-up as well.

--
Sarah H
Disclaimer 1: All opinions are my own
Disclaimer 2: Any non-work-related links in this post should be viewed in
your own time
/^\ ASCII RIBBON
\ / CAMPAIGN
X AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \ AND POSTINGS.
r***@aol.com
2005-05-19 20:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
The first Alan Lewrie novel's first scene ...
Just ordered it. Book 3 got a good write-up as well.
--
Sarah H
Disclaimer 1: All opinions are my own
Disclaimer 2: Any non-work-related links in this post should be viewed in
your own time
/^\ ASCII RIBBON
\ / CAMPAIGN
X AGAINST HTML MAIL
/ \ AND POSTINGS.
SNIP

Here's another series uou would probably enjoy

http://www.glencannon.com/


Gilpatric, Guy 1896-1950

Glencannon series: (Dipsomaniac Scots Chief Engineer Glencannon makes
life difficult for Captain Ball and everyone else aboard the British
tramp steamer INCHCLIFFE CASTLE, especially First Mate Montgomery.
Duggan's Dew of Kirkintilloch, "most gorgeous of all liquids that ever
dripped golden from the nozzle of a still to mingle its perfume with
that of the heather in the cold highland mists", leads Glencannon into
and, amazingly, sometimes out of, all kinds of trouble. Great Fun!)

Glencannon Afloat
The Gentleman with the Walrus Mustache
The Glencannon Omnibus, 1937 (Includes Scotch and Water,
Half Seas Over, and Three Sheets in the Wind.)
The Second Glencannon Omnibus
The Canny Mr. Glencannon, 1948 (10 short stories.)
Glencannon Meets Tugboat Annie, 1956
Best of Glencannon, 1944 (Reprinted in 1968. 22 short
stories.)


They are available at

http://www.glencannon.com/

(Note that some of these were probbaly retitled in the list below)


The Mr. Glencannon Series

Guy Gilpatric's hugely-popular series, including the illustrations
that appeared in the old Saturday Evening Post, all complete and
unabridged. An 8-volume, limited, numbered Collectors' Edition in
hard cover with a unique spine design, and an accompanying 2-volume
Encyclopedia that is indespensible for the true Glencannon fan. Price
for the complete 8 volume set $350. With The Glencannon Encyclopedia,
$400.

"A beautifully-bound edition of Glencannon and his madcap adventures
[which] delighted a generation of readers ... a delightful
discovery."
- Steamboat Bill


MR. GLENCANNON IGNORES THE WAR
Our hero tries to ignore World War II only to find it won't ignore
him.
Illustrated by George Hughes. 224 pp.
ISBN 0-9637586-7-5

THE GLENCANNON MENAGERIE
Eleven classic stories relating to animals, creatures and other
critters.
Illustrated by Anton Otto Fischer & George Hughes. 224 pp.
ISBN 1-889901-00-8

NOTE:
Mr. Glencannon Ignores the War and The Glencannon Menagerie are
currently available only as part of the full set. All other Glencannon
volumes are still available individually.

GLENCANNON & CO. has fun with the notion of the Inchcliffe Castle as a
corporation. The eleven stories in Vol. 3 portray the interactions in
the "company." Illustrated by Anton Otto Fischer & George Hughes,
224 pp.
ISBN 1-889901-03-2 Price: $35

HOLY GLENCANNON!
In Vol. 4, our spirited Chief Engineer displays his grasp of the
world's religions. Illustrated by Anton Otto Fischer, Gordon Grant
and Raeburn Van Buren. 224 pp. ISBN 1-889901-07-5 Price: $35

THE ROMANTIC GLENCANNON
Eleven stories involving matters of the heart - although with our
larcenous Chief Engineer, there may well be other considerations.
Illustrated by Tony Sarg and Anton Otto Fischer. 224 pp. ISBN
1-889901-10-5 Price: $35

THE ÆSTHETIC GLENCANNON
An aesthete is one who loves beauty for its sake. Mr. Glencannon? Well
"beauty is in the eye of the beholder," and to our Chief Engineer,
large quantities of Duggan's dew (or a well-executed swindle) are
beautiful, indeed. These eleven stories go a long way toward proving
auld Colin does appreciate the finer things - well, some of them,
anyway.
Illustrated by Anton Otto Fischer & George Hughes. Hard cover, 224 pp.
ISBN 1-889901-13-X
Price: $35

THE CRAFTY GLENCANNON
Wily, sly, cunning. Mr. Glencannon is all of these when it comes to
extracting an extra farthing from the hands of the unsuspecting, or
sometimes, even the suspecting. This collection of twelve stories
portrays Mr. Glencannon at his most devious - and crafty. Illustrated
by Anton Otto Fischer, Gordon Grant and George Hughes. Hard cover, 224
pp. ISBN 1-889901-17-2 Price: $35

GLENCANNON MEETS TUGBOAT ANNIE
Two of fiction's most outrageous, conniving and hilarious characters in
an epic adventure that traverses the length and breadth of Puget Sound.
including the original Saturday Evening Post illustrations. by Guy
Gilpatric and Norman Reilly Raine Illustrated by Harold von Schmidt.
Hard cover, 224 pp. ISBN 1-889901-23-7 Price: $35

THE GLENCANNON ENCYCLOPEDIA
Unusual, different, unique - The Glencannon Encyclopedia is
chock-full of facts and information about Mr. Glencannon, his ship, his
mates, his version of English (and other languages), his view of the
world. In it is every port, bar, saloon and drinking establishment;
relatives and characters from every prank and swindle; police and
prophets; ladies and laddies; food and drink. How many ways is "liquid
refreshment" referred to in the stories? Look up "drink." You might be
surprised. How many uses for "the Dew?" What is a "gafoozler?"

The Encyclopedia includes maps of all the Inchcliffe Castle's voyages
and ports of call (with dates); photos, definitions, illustrations -
all vurra useful in resolving any spirited discussions. Every entry
identifies the story it came from so you can go back, find it, and
enjoy it again.
Hard cover, 2 volumes, 512 pp., 400+ photos & illus. ISBN 1-889901-24-5

Price: $75 the set.
Graeme Wall
2005-05-18 17:08:45 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
"Sarah H" <***@aol.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Sarah H
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
Hornblower being seduced by a Russian Countess a bit tame then?
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Sarah H
2005-05-18 19:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
[snip]
Post by Sarah H
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
Hornblower being seduced by a Russian Countess a bit tame then?
If it's in a mainstream novel then it probably will be (just as guys
tend to like top shelf magazines with lots of photos, I like to read
the text equivalent of those (Nexus, Black Lace, Chimera etc)).
--
Sarah Hotdesking
DM
2005-05-18 19:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
I am told that there are several naval actions contained within some of the
"Gor" novels by John Norman ;-)
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-18 19:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM
Post by Sarah H
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
I am told that there are several naval actions contained within some
of the "Gor" novels by John Norman ;-)
Oh grief, that really is scraping the barrel. Plotless pulp. If you've
read one you've read them all. I'm going to follow up some suggested
reading from earlier in the thread :-) Or maybe I should write about the
Ustafish goings on and get that published ;-)
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
c***@alanlittle.org
2005-05-18 20:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Wot no mention of Lothar-Günther Buchheim's Das Boot?

Apart from that I agree with:
Patrick O'Brian is one of the best English novelists of the last half
century
Monsarrat's The Cruel Sea is a classic
The Good Shepherd is indeed easily Forester's best, although The Ship
(Second Battle of Sirte) is also fun
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 08:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Wot no mention of Lothar-G=FCnther Buchheim's Das Boot?
Patrick O'Brian is one of the best English novelists of the last half
century
Monsarrat's The Cruel Sea is a classic
The Good Shepherd is indeed easily Forester's best, although The Ship
(Second Battle of Sirte) is also fun
For certain values of "fun". The bit about flooding the magazine
gives me the shudders even when it's a year or so since I last read
the book..

For other naval fiction, I'd put a nod in for John Biggins'
Otta Prohaska novels - Austro-Hungarian Navy (OK, KuK Marine),
pre-WW1 and WW1. The first of them - "A sailor of Austria"
- is the best of the bunch: WW1 submarine warfare in the
Med.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
BF Lake
2005-05-19 13:06:07 UTC
Permalink
<***@alanlittle.org> wrote in message news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Wot no mention of Lothar-Günther Buchheim's Das Boot?

Apart from that I agree with:
Patrick O'Brian is one of the best English novelists of the last half
century
Monsarrat's The Cruel Sea is a classic
The Good Shepherd is indeed easily Forester's best, although The Ship
(Second Battle of Sirte) is also fun

Agree The Ship is good, but written by ?

Regards,
Barry
Graeme Wall
2005-05-19 13:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@alanlittle.org
Wot no mention of Lothar-Günther Buchheim's Das Boot?
Patrick O'Brian is one of the best English novelists of the last half
century
Monsarrat's The Cruel Sea is a classic
The Good Shepherd is indeed easily Forester's best, although The Ship
(Second Battle of Sirte) is also fun
Agree The Ship is good, but written by ?
Forester
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Joe Osman
2005-05-18 20:32:22 UTC
Permalink
When I read about the "slaver's caress" in "Tarnsman of Gor", IIRC, I
had to spend several weeks reviewing female anatomy and sexual response
in an attempt to figure it out. It never did make any sense. He's too
politically incorrect to get published now.
There weren't very many fantasy novels back in the 60s when he was
first published, but they occupy about 2/3 of the "Science Fiction"
areas of bookstores now.
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-18 21:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Osman
When I read about the "slaver's caress" in "Tarnsman of Gor", IIRC, I
had to spend several weeks reviewing female anatomy and sexual response
in an attempt to figure it out. It never did make any sense. He's too
politically incorrect to get published now.
Un-PC for the mainstream, but there are plenty of specialist fetish
publishers. Not worth it though as 2nd hand bookshops are full of Gor
novels and they are utterly formulaic and predictable, almost down to which
page the various types of steamy bits are on (yeah, I've tried a few).
Anyway, no point in a chap trying to fully understand female sexual
response - I'm female and even I don't understand it sometimes :-0 I'd
need to read the section to figure out what he was on about - I hope the
trying to figure it out was good practical experience!
Post by Joe Osman
There weren't very many fantasy novels back in the 60s when he was
first published, but they occupy about 2/3 of the "Science Fiction"
areas of bookstores now.
He also started a series set on spaceships, not sure how many he wrote
though. It turned out to be "Gor for the space age".

But this is not naval!
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2005-05-19 17:57:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah Hotdesking
Oh grief, that really is scraping the barrel. Plotless pulp. If
you've read one you've read them all.
The first 3 were not that bad IIRC. It was when the sex and bondage
became more important than the plot that the books became trash. This
is from memory because I dumped the lot. There are better rip offs of
Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Ken Young
***@cix.co.uk

Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)
Sarah H
2005-05-19 19:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Sarah Hotdesking
Oh grief, that really is scraping the barrel. Plotless pulp. If
you've read one you've read them all.
The first 3 were not that bad IIRC. It was when the sex and bondage
became more important than the plot that the books became trash.
The problem was, the ones I read weren't even good sex and bondage,
plus Norman kept trying to push his personal philosophy about a woman's
place. Back in the 80s I got a letter printed in the Grauniad about
the Gor novels. Still got it somewhere. Some SF author wanted the
novels off the shelves as they were insulting to women (yeah right -
some of my girlfriends loved them, but it wasn't PC for women to admit
to it). I wrote in saying maybe women writers should create a parallel
series involving the brutal enslavement of men (MZB's "Ruins of Isis"
is halfway there, Nexus and Black Lace hadn't started up back then).
The Grauniad ended up forwarding letters to me from men who wanted to
subscribe to my vision and would I like to contact them to further
discuss brutally enslaving them!
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
This
is from memory because I dumped the lot. There are better rip offs of
Edgar Rice Burroughs.
Agreed. It was badly written fetish lit masquerading as sci-fi.
Aishling Morgan does a much better job of it in her "Maiden" saga.

--
Sarah H
William Black
2005-05-19 19:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by Sarah Hotdesking
Oh grief, that really is scraping the barrel. Plotless pulp. If
you've read one you've read them all.
The first 3 were not that bad IIRC. It was when the sex and bondage
became more important than the plot that the books became trash.
The problem was, the ones I read weren't even good sex and bondage,
plus Norman kept trying to push his personal philosophy about a woman's
place. Back in the 80s I got a letter printed in the Grauniad about
the Gor novels. Still got it somewhere. Some SF author wanted the
novels off the shelves as they were insulting to women
Michael Moorcock.

He expands on his reasons in his critique of fantasy fiction 'Wizardry and
Wild Romance'.

My main problem with Norman wasn't the sex, which wasn't sexy anyway. It
was that a reasonably unfit English teacher (a teacher of English, his
nationality wasn't important) who did a bit of fencing one evening a week
was 'the finest swordsman on Gor' after two weeks. I always wondered what
would happen if they kidnapped the 'All Russia Women's Fencing Champion' and
tried to make her into a sex slave...

Oh yes, and pikes...

Why didn't the poor oppressed people of Gor develop the pike? There seemed
to be kidnapped Earthmen behind every second bush who could explain it all
to them.

Cultures that use the pike as an infantry weapon tend to get out of the
'heroic swordsman as military superman' idea really quickly...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2005-05-20 10:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Cultures that use the pike as an infantry weapon tend to get out of
the 'heroic swordsman as military superman' idea really quickly...
The Scorpio series (Dray Prescot) in one book, had the hero organise
slave revolt and turn the slaves into pike men. The hero was still the
best swordsman on Scorpio. It's an interesting series, a cut above
average pulp. Oh, and it does have some naval content.

Ken Young
***@cix.co.uk

Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)
Jack Linthicum
2005-05-20 10:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Post by William Black
Cultures that use the pike as an infantry weapon tend to get out of
the 'heroic swordsman as military superman' idea really quickly...
The Scorpio series (Dray Prescot) in one book, had the hero organise
slave revolt and turn the slaves into pike men. The hero was still the
best swordsman on Scorpio. It's an interesting series, a cut above
average pulp. Oh, and it does have some naval content.
Ken Young
Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)
I think I have read an Edgar Rice Burroughs or similar author about
wind sailing on Mars, is this naval content? If so the U.S. Navy cook
books may well be fiction with a naval content.
http://www.seabeecook.com/books/milfs_biblio/us_navy_books.htm
Fred J. McCall
2005-05-20 14:04:22 UTC
Permalink
"William Black" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

:Why didn't the poor oppressed people of Gor develop the pike? There seemed
:to be kidnapped Earthmen behind every second bush who could explain it all
:to them.
:
:Cultures that use the pike as an infantry weapon tend to get out of the
:'heroic swordsman as military superman' idea really quickly...

More importantly, one wonders why they never figured out that dumping
hot pitch from hundreds of tarns would pretty much do for all the poor
sods on the ground. Perhaps they should have kidnapped Bomber Harris?
:-)
Sarah H
2005-05-20 16:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Michael Moorcock.
He expands on his reasons in his critique of fantasy fiction
'Wizardry and
Post by William Black
Wild Romance'.
I haven't read that item, but I did read his views in the Grauniad.
Moorcock's attitude also irritated me. I don't need a man to tell me
what books I (a female) should find degrading - I find that approach
patronising. Maybe the real problem was that Norman was having greater
sales than Moorcock.
--
Sarah H
William Black
2005-05-20 18:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by William Black
Michael Moorcock.
He expands on his reasons in his critique of fantasy fiction
'Wizardry and
Post by William Black
Wild Romance'.
I haven't read that item, but I did read his views in the Grauniad.
Moorcock's attitude also irritated me.
He's got an irritating attitude.

'Wizardry and Wild Romance' is more about trashing Tolkien and the then
popular US right wing authors like Jerry Pournell.

If the proposed s.m.n UK weekend ever happens I'll bring a copy along for
you to have a read of.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-20 22:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Sarah H
I haven't read that item, but I did read his views in the Grauniad.
Moorcock's attitude also irritated me.
He's got an irritating attitude.
'Wizardry and Wild Romance' is more about trashing Tolkien and the then
popular US right wing authors like Jerry Pournell.
If the proposed s.m.n UK weekend ever happens I'll bring a copy along for
you to have a read of.
Unless a few more people sign up, it could be just me and thee and the
museum of our choice. Feel free to bring reading - we'd probably run out
of conversation. (My 40th birthday now looms on the horizon)
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
DM
2005-05-20 23:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
If the proposed s.m.n UK weekend ever happens I'll bring a copy along for
you to have a read of.
Anyone doing anything on June 28th (fleet review day)?
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-21 08:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM
Post by William Black
If the proposed s.m.n UK weekend ever happens I'll bring a copy
along for you to have a read of.
Anyone doing anything on June 28th (fleet review day)?
Nothing booked, would have to check if I can get the day off work.
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
DM
2005-05-21 11:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM
Anyone doing anything on June 28th (fleet review day)?
Last time I looked (and booked) there were spaces on the Red Funnel ferries
that re going out into the Solent for the review.

DM
John Dallman
2005-05-20 21:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
I haven't read that item, but I did read his views in the Grauniad.
Moorcock's attitude also irritated me. I don't need a man to tell me
what books I (a female) should find degrading - I find that approach
patronising. Maybe the real problem was that Norman was having greater
sales than Moorcock.
Nah - Moorcock was genuine on that thread at the time. He's calmed down a
lot now. He'd had an attack of reading Andrea Dworkin and taking it both
literally and personally.

---
John Dallman, ***@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
k***@cix.compulink.co.uk
2005-05-21 10:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
Maybe the real problem was that Norman was having greater
sales than Moorcock.
Or that the Norman books were crap, from what I can remember what
plot there was, often did not make sense. I have read a fair number of
pulp novels, I am a Doc Savage fan, but Norman tool the genre to a new
low.

Ken Young
***@cix.co.uk

Those who cover themselves with martial glory
frequently go in need of any other garment. (Bramah)
Peter McLelland
2005-05-19 07:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
Post by Jack Linthicum
DOUGLAS REEMAN
Douglas Reeman, a veteran of British naval service aboard destroyers
and motor torpedo boats, has written nearly three dozen novels about
the Royal Navy and Royal Marines. As Alexander Kent, he is the
creator
Post by Jack Linthicum
of the Bolitho Saga.
One of dad's favourite authors about 20 years ago and the usual
Xmas/birthday request for either a Reeman novel or the latest Wilbur
Smith (non-naval) novel. Had I known Reeman wrote under another name
it would have made dad's birthdays even easier to shop for! Strangely
dad has lost interest in Reeman, but is an avid reader of Wilbur Smith,
this seemed to coincide with him buying his own floaty thing and
playing Swallows & Amazons with his mates (dad is 70, his usual crew is
an 80 year old). Dr Andy Breen will be familiar with my description of
dad playing Swallows & Amazons as dad kindly provided me with a
nautical chart of a local waterway to scan and send to Andy.
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
I met Douglas Reeman once when he visited the boat I was in to do some
research for a future book. He seemed a very pleasant man, and I must admit
that I have enjoyed reading his books over the years.

Peter
John Dallman
2005-05-20 21:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sarah H
(When naval content is combined with erotica then I'll develop an
interest)
Closest thing I've ever come across to that is the _Fox_ series by Adam
Hardy (who was actually Ken Bulmer, author of the Dray Prescott SF
novels). Not that it's very close - _Fox_ has a certain amount of sodomy
in it, but basically only as a means of creating crimes that the central
character can't do anything about because the people in question have too
much influence. Aside from that, the series is essentially Alexander Kent
with less research, less angst, and more deaths.

Haven't Black Lace done any books with pirate settings? Seems an obvious
idea for them.

---
John Dallman, ***@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
Sarah Hotdesking
2005-05-20 22:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Haven't Black Lace done any books with pirate settings? Seems an
obvious idea for them.
"The Crimson Buccaneer" - actually not bad, but I've no idea how accurate
it was.
--
Sarah H
Johnson's Law: Any thread with Mr McCall, Miss Hotdesking and
Mr Sandstrom participating will sooner rather than later (d)evolve
into smut.
http://www.messybeast.com
http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/MBS.htm
The Sandstrom-Hartwell Miserable Bastard Scale
Joachim Schmid
2005-05-18 16:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".

Regards

Joachim
Vince Brannigan
2005-05-18 18:13:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Schmid
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".
Regards
Joachim
"The General" (1936) tops my list

Vince
Graeme Wall
2005-05-18 17:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Schmid
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".
His worst books are The Peacemaker and The Nightmare, don't bother.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Jack Love
2005-05-19 00:56:24 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:11:06 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Joachim Schmid
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".
His worst books are The Peacemaker and The Nightmare, don't bother.
Wasn't there also one entitled "The Bath Chair" or some such...WWI
butcher General in retirement?
Graeme Wall
2005-05-19 07:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Love
On Wed, 18 May 2005 18:11:06 +0100, Graeme Wall
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Joachim Schmid
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".
His worst books are The Peacemaker and The Nightmare, don't bother.
Wasn't there also one entitled "The Bath Chair" or some such...WWI
butcher General in retirement?
That is The General
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 08:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Schmid
Post by Jack Linthicum
C S FORESTER
C S Forester created British naval officer Horatio Hornblower, a
favorite of nautical fiction readers for more than 60 years.
Yes, worth while reading, but IMHO Forester's best novels are "The
African Queen" and "The Good Shepherd".
I'd put a nod in for "The Ship", as well. For one thing, it's got
one of the best descriptions of how a warship of that time (WW2)
actually functioned..
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
John Dallman
2005-05-20 21:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
I'd put a nod in for "The Ship", as well. For one thing, it's got
one of the best descriptions of how a warship of that time (WW2)
actually functioned..
And a truly excellent recipe for tomato soup for 500 in ten minutes. It
does requires the boiler room crew to be willing to spare a spot of feed
water, but offering them food will usually do that.

---
John Dallman, ***@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
Graeme Wall
2005-05-18 16:44:17 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
"Jack Linthicum" <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Jack Linthicum
DOUGLAS REEMAN
Douglas Reeman, a veteran of British naval service aboard destroyers
and motor torpedo boats, has written nearly three dozen novels about
the Royal Navy and Royal Marines.
Actually he has written one book with 3 dozen different titles. He also has
a thing about women in red.

[snip]
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
John
2005-05-18 17:22:29 UTC
Permalink
A retired admiral named Mack (first William?) wote a series of novels
set aboard older U.S.N destroyers in the south Pacific at the the
opening of World War II. One was entitled "South to Java." Seems they
were published about 15 years ago.

It has been that long since I read them and while the books were not
perfect, I enjoyed the accounts of duty abourd a four-piper and just
skipped the "romantic" shore excursions. I am not sure how many there
were or how others reacted to them, but I remember that I enjoyed the
two I read. Perhaps though, the difficulty in finding copies is more
telling than my memory.
Jack Linthicum
2005-05-18 17:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John
A retired admiral named Mack (first William?) wote a series of novels
set aboard older U.S.N destroyers in the south Pacific at the the
opening of World War II. One was entitled "South to Java." Seems they
were published about 15 years ago.
It has been that long since I read them and while the books were not
perfect, I enjoyed the accounts of duty abourd a four-piper and just
skipped the "romantic" shore excursions. I am not sure how many there
were or how others reacted to them, but I remember that I enjoyed the
two I read. Perhaps though, the difficulty in finding copies is more
telling than my memory.
as you can see from the price this is a rare book of great historical
value.
1. South to Java: A Novel -- by William P. Mack; Hardcover (Rate it)
Buy new: $5.37 -- Used & new from: $0.80

1. Lieutenant Christopher: A Novel of the Sea -- by William P. MacK;
Hardcover (Rate it)
Buy new: $14.94 -- Used & new from: $9.94
2. Normandy (Destroyer Series/William P. Mack) -- by William P. MacK;
Hardcover (Rate it)
-- Used & new from: $16.42
3. South to Java: A Novel -- by William P. Mack; Hardcover (Rate it)
Buy new: $5.37 -- Used & new from: $0.80
4. Commodore Kilburnie: A Novel -- by William P. MacK; Hardcover
(Rate it)
Buy new: $16.47 -- Used & new from: $3.45

8. Christopher in the War of 1812: A Novel of the Sea
by Vadm William P. Mack (Hardcover - April 1, 2005)
(Rate this item)
Not yet released.
List Price: $22.95
Buy new: $15.61



9. Straits of Messina
by Vice Admiral William P. Mack (Hardcover - September 1, 1994)
(Rate this item)
Special Order
List Price: $24.95
Buy new: $24.95
Used & new from $8.00
11. Christopher and the Quasi-War With France: A Novel of the Sea
by William P. MacK (Hardcover - October 1, 2002)
(Rate this item)
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price: $22.95
Buy new: $15.61
Used & new from $8.50


12. Pursuit of the Seawolf
by William P. MacK
Avg. Customer Rating: 5.0 out of 5 stars
(Rate this item)
Other Editions: Hardcover | Paperback
Usually ships within 1-2 business days
Used & new from $1.18


13. Checkfire!
by William P. MacK (Hardcover - September 1, 1992)
(Rate this item)
Usually ships in 24 hours
List Price: $24.95
Buy new: $16.47
Used & new from $6.22


14. New Guinea: A novel
by William P Mack
(Rate this item)
Usually ships within 1-2 business days
Used & new from $9.95
DH
2005-05-18 17:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Not "warfare" or "naval" but a really, really good book about the ships and
the sea is "Two Years Before the Mast" by Richard H. Dana.

Dana was a student at Harvard in the 1830s (or so) who found his eyesight
failing and shipped out as a common seaman on an American merchant ship then
wrote about the experience.

A fascinating experience and Dana was a very good writer who really brought
the experience alive.
Jack Linthicum
2005-05-18 17:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Not "warfare" or "naval" but a really, really good book about the ships and
the sea is "Two Years Before the Mast" by Richard H. Dana.
Dana was a student at Harvard in the 1830s (or so) who found his eyesight
failing and shipped out as a common seaman on an American merchant ship then
wrote about the experience.
A fascinating experience and Dana was a very good writer who really brought
the experience alive.
Yes, Read Dana and then visit Southern California. Where Dana Point
used to be a surfer's paradise that you had to hike half a mile down a
cliff to reach, much like the ranchers of Dana's time brough the hides
down to the same place to float out to the Yankee ships, it is now a
yacht harbor with $4-5 million homes.
Graeme Wall
2005-05-18 18:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Wouldn't rate it in the top 10 but Alistair NacClean's 'HMS Ulysses' is a
good evocation of the Russian Convoys.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Vince Brannigan
2005-05-18 20:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Wouldn't rate it in the top 10 but Alistair NacClean's 'HMS Ulysses' is a
good evocation of the Russian Convoys.
stunningly good read


vince
Glenn Dowdy
2005-05-18 20:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince Brannigan
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Wouldn't rate it in the top 10 but Alistair NacClean's 'HMS Ulysses' is a
good evocation of the Russian Convoys.
stunningly good read
I still miss the Kapok Kid.

Glenn D.
Tim
2005-05-18 21:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince Brannigan
Post by Graeme Wall
Wouldn't rate it in the top 10 but Alistair NacClean's 'HMS Ulysses' is a
good evocation of the Russian Convoys.
stunningly good read
Seconded/Thirded etc. For me, it's up there with "The Cruel Sea", but
more intense, since condensed into 6 days & nights.

Someone here introduced me to Wolfgang Ott's "sharks & little fish"
published in the 1950s. I'd rate it as similar to Ulysses, but POV of a
German who is first in the surface fleet, then U boats. The original
German way of sentence construction sort of comes over in the
translation to English (which adds authenticity, IMO). Some very good
human observation, & some really horrible casual violence, destruction &
suffering (if these things can be considered good :-) ).

T.
Fred J. McCall
2005-05-20 05:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Vince Brannigan <***@firelaw.us> wrote:

:Graeme Wall wrote:
:>
:> Wouldn't rate it in the top 10 but Alistair NacClean's 'HMS Ulysses' is a
:> good evocation of the Russian Convoys.
:
:stunningly good read

Just to prove I don't ALWAYS disagree with Vince, I quite agree.
Keith W
2005-05-18 20:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Not "warfare" or "naval" but a really, really good book about the ships and
the sea is "Two Years Before the Mast" by Richard H. Dana.
Dana was a student at Harvard in the 1830s (or so) who found his eyesight
failing and shipped out as a common seaman on an American merchant ship then
wrote about the experience.
A fascinating experience and Dana was a very good writer who really brought
the experience alive.
Add to that Jack London's The Sea Wolf

Keith
Al
2005-05-18 17:41:57 UTC
Permalink
I thought "Fire Lance" by David Mace was excellent.
r***@aol.com
2005-05-18 18:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
SNIP

In aproximate order of merit. The Cruel Sea is my noimination for best
novel of all time

1) The Cruel Sea
2) The Caine Mutiny
3) The African Queen
4) The Bridges At Toko-Ri
5) The Enemy Below
6) Away All Boats
7) The Good Shepherd
8) Run Silent, Run Deep
9) HMS Ulysses
10)Not naval, but have to be mentioned: Moby Dick & 20000 Leagues Under
the Sea
Michael P. Reed
2005-05-18 22:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@aol.com
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
SNIP
In aproximate order of merit. The Cruel Sea is my noimination for best
novel of all time
1) The Cruel Sea
Never read.
Post by r***@aol.com
2) The Caine Mutiny
Just finished rereading it this past weekend.
Post by r***@aol.com
3) The African Queen
On the shelf.
Post by r***@aol.com
4) The Bridges At Toko-Ri
I've been looking for something to read again. Must remember when I
return to the library
Post by r***@aol.com
5) The Enemy Below
6) Away All Boats
7) The Good Shepherd
8) Run Silent, Run Deep
9) HMS Ulysses
Also good, and piled next to the bed.
Post by r***@aol.com
10)Not naval, but have to be mentioned: Moby Dick & 20000 Leagues Under
the Sea
For a somewhat more but not quite juvinile, Torpedo Run, and there is
always The Bedford Incident. Not bad is To Kill The Potemkin.
--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed
Justin Broderick
2005-05-18 18:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Of my top three USN novels, only one is set in wartime:
"Delilah" by Marcus Goodrich
"The Sand Pebbles" by Richard McKenna
"Run Silent, Run Deep" by Edward L. Beach.

Each is a classic that stands up to many re-readings...

--Justin
DH
2005-05-18 18:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Fact:

Clear the Bridge! : The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang -- by RICHARD O'KANE.
This is the real deal; Richard O'Kane was the skipper of the Tang and fought
a couple of amazing actions as skipper of a WWII US submarine before his
capture(!) by the Japanese. Well written, too.

Pig Boats -- by Theodore Roscoe? I'm not entirely sure who wrote this but
I'm pretty sure this was the correct title. It's a summary of US WWII
submarine efforts in the Pacific, with certain events emphasized and some
human interest angles, IIRC. Fairly well written.

Wahoo : The Patrols of America's Most Famous World War II Submarine -- by
RICHARD O'KANE. OK, I haven't read this but I'll bet it's good. I'm going
to see if I can get the local library to track down a copy of this for me.


Fiction:

Run Silent, Run Deep -- by Beach, Edward Latimer, 1918- . I believe Beach
was another sub skipper in WWII. I remember reading this and recall it was
pretty good but don't remember the details. I suppose it was the basis for
the movie of the same name. Let's check IMDB... ...yes he was a skipper
and it is the basis for the movie. Also commanded the Triton, the first sub
(nuclear) to circumnavigate the Earth submerged. Sometimes listed as Ned
Beach.


Unsure:

X-Craft Raid. I can't remember the author's name and I think I no longer
have this book. British midget subs attack the Tirpitz at her
well-protected dock in Norway. Absolutely fascinating, if true, but I'm not
sure if this was or wasn't fiction. Very imaginative, if fiction. Well
written.

If anybody's familiar with this book, I'd appreciate knowing if it was fact
or fiction.
William Black
2005-05-18 19:14:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
Clear the Bridge! : The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang -- by RICHARD O'KANE.
This is the real deal; Richard O'Kane was the skipper of the Tang and fought
a couple of amazing actions as skipper of a WWII US submarine before his
capture(!) by the Japanese. Well written, too.
Pig Boats -- by Theodore Roscoe? I'm not entirely sure who wrote this but
I'm pretty sure this was the correct title. It's a summary of US WWII
submarine efforts in the Pacific, with certain events emphasized and some
human interest angles, IIRC. Fairly well written.
Wahoo : The Patrols of America's Most Famous World War II Submarine -- by
RICHARD O'KANE. OK, I haven't read this but I'll bet it's good. I'm going
to see if I can get the local library to track down a copy of this for me.
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.

The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...

You'll wish it were fiction...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 08:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Peter McLelland
2005-05-19 09:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development and
for the first steam submarines did not too badly. The concept of submarines
working with the fleet whilst abhorrent to the submariner has always had an
attraction to those in general service and concepts of such use resurrected
themselves with the advent of the modern steam submarine.

Peter
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 11:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development and
for the first steam submarines did not too badly. The concept of submarines
working with the fleet whilst abhorrent to the submariner has always had an
attraction to those in general service and concepts of such use resurrected
themselves with the advent of the modern steam submarine.
I did include a smiley there - the Ks were probably the best solution to
the requirement they were designed to fufil, the requirement was of itself
sensible (as you say, fleet submarines didn;t go away and now are here
to stay) - it was just that the techology of the time meant that you
couldn't go a decent job (and they'd have been just as lethal with
diesels - the real problems were with control: "the speed of a
destroyer, the turning circle of a light cruiser and the bridge
of a picket boat").

That said, it should have been obvious by mid-WW1 that steam submarines
were a /bad thing/. The French had a whole array of the horrible things
and had several nasty losses by then.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Peter McLelland
2005-05-19 13:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development and
for the first steam submarines did not too badly. The concept of submarines
working with the fleet whilst abhorrent to the submariner has always had an
attraction to those in general service and concepts of such use resurrected
themselves with the advent of the modern steam submarine.
I did include a smiley there - the Ks were probably the best solution to
the requirement they were designed to fufil, the requirement was of itself
sensible (as you say, fleet submarines didn;t go away and now are here
to stay) - it was just that the techology of the time meant that you
couldn't go a decent job (and they'd have been just as lethal with
diesels - the real problems were with control: "the speed of a
destroyer, the turning circle of a light cruiser and the bridge
of a picket boat").
The 'K's were as you say a good technical response to the requirement, but
the requirement was not well thought out and if it had actually been applied
in a re-run of Jutland would probably have done fpr more 'K's than High Seas
Fleet BBs.

What did for the searly steam boats was not that the technology didn't work
or couldn't be made to work, rather it became realised that the roles that
required steam power were not actually good submarine roles. As the roles
disappeared so did the steam.
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
That said, it should have been obvious by mid-WW1 that steam submarines
were a /bad thing/. The French had a whole array of the horrible things
and had several nasty losses by then.
You have to remember that it was only by the mid 50s that submarine
operations became safe enough for accidents to become a rarity. Before WW2
they were common even with diesels. I still correspond with a guy whose
father was the naval architect on K13 when she went down in the Gareloch. In
fact I would suggest that really good operating practice did not 'surface'
till after the Thresher went down. Each accident tended to give the
community a greater understanding of the risks and how to reduce their
likely impact.

I would also suggest that although there may be procedures for SSNs to
operate closely with the fleet, from the submariners point of view it is
still 'not a good idea'. Distant integrated operations are fine, just don't
let them get within weapon range, the Grey Funnel Line is far to trigger
happy when they think about submarines even today, almost as panicky as they
were at Jutland.

Peter
John Dallman
2005-05-20 21:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
I would also suggest that although there may be procedures for SSNs to
operate closely with the fleet, from the submariners point of view it is
still 'not a good idea'. Distant integrated operations are fine, just
don't let them get within weapon range, the Grey Funnel Line is far to
trigger happy when they think about submarines even today, almost as
panicky as they were at Jutland.
The concept of a "friendly submarine" is rather difficult when you can't
tell friend from foe.

---
John Dallman, ***@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
Peter McLelland
2005-05-23 08:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Peter McLelland
I would also suggest that although there may be procedures for SSNs to
operate closely with the fleet, from the submariners point of view it is
still 'not a good idea'. Distant integrated operations are fine, just
don't let them get within weapon range, the Grey Funnel Line is far to
trigger happy when they think about submarines even today, almost as
panicky as they were at Jutland.
The concept of a "friendly submarine" is rather difficult when you can't
tell friend from foe.
Oh I agree, but when the Grey Funnel Line want you to act as a bloody big
VDS for you they tell all sorts of stories about how nice they will be to
you, but deep down you know that as soon as they get just a little bit
panicky they will fire at any thing.

Peter
John Dallman
2005-05-23 20:25:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Oh I agree, but when the Grey Funnel Line want you to act as a bloody
big VDS for you they tell all sorts of stories about how nice they will
be to you, but deep down you know that as soon as they get just a
little bit panicky they will fire at any thing.
Are they still trying to use that idea? I knew they tried it in the early
days of UK SSNs, but I always assumed that was a reaction of "Wow - a sub
that can keep up with the fleet! What can we ask it to do?"

With Spearfish, the SSN can kill anything nearby better than the surface
vessels; I suppose they want to know about stuff they should send the
helicopters after?

---
John Dallman, ***@cix.co.uk, HTML mail is treated as probable spam.
Peter McLelland
2005-05-24 12:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Peter McLelland
Oh I agree, but when the Grey Funnel Line want you to act as a bloody
big VDS for you they tell all sorts of stories about how nice they will
be to you, but deep down you know that as soon as they get just a
little bit panicky they will fire at any thing.
Are they still trying to use that idea? I knew they tried it in the early
days of UK SSNs, but I always assumed that was a reaction of "Wow - a sub
that can keep up with the fleet! What can we ask it to do?"
Don't know if they still try, have been out of that loop for 30 years now.
Certainly there were a good few senior officers who were submariners in the
80s and perhaps they got ideas like that removed from the 'Fighting
Instructions', but they could have crept back, hell if it was a good idea in
1916 it must still be a good idea.

Peter
William Black
2005-05-19 19:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development and
for the first steam submarines did not too badly.
For a given value of 'badly'.

They were a disaster and killed nearly as many Brits as Bismarck.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Peter McLelland
2005-05-20 07:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development
and
Post by Peter McLelland
for the first steam submarines did not too badly.
For a given value of 'badly'.
They were a disaster and killed nearly as many Brits as Bismarck.
Conceptually they were a disaster as their planned use was impractical, and
several of the losses were nothing to do with their construction, but all to
do with their method of employment.

They were no more prone to accidents than most of their diesel companions,
and most of their reputation is due to the sinking of K 13 and the Battle of
May Island. The Ks were not the only class to lose a boat on CSTs, Thetis
was lost on CSTs, but the T class was one of the most successful WW2
classes, despite the design problems with the TT rear door which were solved
with the 'Thetis Clip'

Peter
William Black
2005-05-20 08:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read about...
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of joined up
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical development
and
Post by Peter McLelland
for the first steam submarines did not too badly.
For a given value of 'badly'.
They were a disaster and killed nearly as many Brits as Bismarck.
Conceptually they were a disaster as their planned use was impractical, and
several of the losses were nothing to do with their construction, but all to
do with their method of employment.
They were no more prone to accidents than most of their diesel companions,
and most of their reputation is due to the sinking of K 13 and the Battle of
May Island.
Well yes, they would be.

The 'Battle of May Island' losses were due to the design concept of a 'fleet
submarine' being flawed.

I gather from my reading that the idea of any submarines operating in close
proximity with large numbers of military surface vessels is still considered
a less than an ideal situation.

To the extent that submarines don't like going anywhere near surface
warships...

It doesn't matter if it's the ship or the idea that kills people, they're
still dead. Technology doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists to harness
man's desires, and in this case man's desires were lethal.

The 'K' boats killed their own people.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Peter McLelland
2005-05-20 11:19:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
Try one called 'The 'K' Boats' by Don Everitt.
The most frightening book about naval warfare I've ever read
about...
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by William Black
You'll wish it were fiction...
No author would dare invent anything so bizarre as a K-boat ;)
Whilst I would agree that the 'K' were the result of a lack of
joined
Post by William Black
up
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
Post by Peter McLelland
thinking in the Admiralty, they were a significant technical
development
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
and
Post by Peter McLelland
for the first steam submarines did not too badly.
For a given value of 'badly'.
They were a disaster and killed nearly as many Brits as Bismarck.
Conceptually they were a disaster as their planned use was impractical,
and
Post by Peter McLelland
several of the losses were nothing to do with their construction, but
all
Post by William Black
to
Post by Peter McLelland
do with their method of employment.
They were no more prone to accidents than most of their diesel companions,
and most of their reputation is due to the sinking of K 13 and the
Battle
Post by William Black
of
Post by Peter McLelland
May Island.
Well yes, they would be.
The 'Battle of May Island' losses were due to the design concept of a 'fleet
submarine' being flawed.
Which is why I have constatly said that the operational need for the boats
was flawed!
Post by William Black
I gather from my reading that the idea of any submarines operating in close
proximity with large numbers of military surface vessels is still considered
a less than an ideal situation.
Well if ytou had read my posts you would have realised that from the
practical experience of being involved in trying to resurect the idea in the
70s I can confirm the idea is not a good e even now.

The problem was that then the concept of a submersible torpedo boat
operating with the fleet seemed to be a good one, but no one had had any
experience of the problems of trying to make it work.
Post by William Black
To the extent that submarines don't like going anywhere near surface
warships...
That's not quite true, going near them to sink them is OK, until the wire
guided torpedo and the homing torpedo were perfected the ideal firing range
for some thing like a Mk 8 was about 1000 yards, quite close I think you
will agree, you can almost see the whites of their eyes.
Post by William Black
It doesn't matter if it's the ship or the idea that kills people, they're
still dead. Technology doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists to harness
man's desires, and in this case man's desires were lethal.
On the other hand if it is mainly the employment of the technology rather
than the technology itself that is potentially fatal, one can hardly blaim
the technology. As botas the 'K's were really no more dangerous to their
crews than any of the other boats at the time. Many boats over the years
have been sunk due to failures in the technology employed in them, and that
can be seen in two US SSN losses far more recently and possibly in the Kuesk
to get right up to date. As boats the 'K's were pretty much as safe asd any
other boat of the period, and considering the fact they made steam tubines
work in them was in my opinion a technological success. I would agree that
if you take away the need to operate with the fleet the need for steam
disapears. Higher surface speeds did become important again by WW2 but for
different reasons and in general this was done with very nuch nmore advanced
diesels with mechanical superchargers.
Post by William Black
The 'K' boats killed their own people.
The same can be said for most classes of submarines until the late 20th C.
Submarines are one of the many things that are only safe as long as you
remember 24/7 that they are bloody dangerous to those who operate them never
mind the enemy.

Peter
William Black
2005-05-20 12:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by William Black
To the extent that submarines don't like going anywhere near surface
warships...
That's not quite true, going near them to sink them is OK, until the wire
guided torpedo and the homing torpedo were perfected the ideal firing range
for some thing like a Mk 8 was about 1000 yards, quite close I think you
will agree, you can almost see the whites of their eyes.
Well that's not quite what I meant.

But I take your point...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Keith W
2005-05-18 20:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Clear the Bridge! : The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang -- by RICHARD O'KANE.
This is the real deal; Richard O'Kane was the skipper of the Tang and fought
a couple of amazing actions as skipper of a WWII US submarine before his
capture(!) by the Japanese. Well written, too.
Pig Boats -- by Theodore Roscoe? I'm not entirely sure who wrote this but
I'm pretty sure this was the correct title. It's a summary of US WWII
submarine efforts in the Pacific, with certain events emphasized and some
human interest angles, IIRC. Fairly well written.
Wahoo : The Patrols of America's Most Famous World War II Submarine -- by
RICHARD O'KANE. OK, I haven't read this but I'll bet it's good. I'm going
to see if I can get the local library to track down a copy of this for me.
Try and get a copy of "One of Our Submarines" by Edward Young
which is about one British Submarine officers experience in theatres
including
the Arctic, Med and Pacific. During the course of the war he
escaped from a sunken submarine in the North Sea, played
a part in torpedoing an enemy sub and carried out surface
attacks on japanese convoys

Keith
Graeme Wall
2005-05-19 07:37:46 UTC
Permalink
In message <d6gaad$6qg$1$***@news.demon.co.uk>
"Keith W" <***@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Keith W
Try and get a copy of "One of Our Submarines" by Edward Young
which is about one British Submarine officers experience in theatres
including
the Arctic, Med and Pacific. During the course of the war he
escaped from a sunken submarine in the North Sea, played
a part in torpedoing an enemy sub and carried out surface
attacks on japanese convoys
Also Unbroken by Alistair Mars, skipper of the eponymous sub in the Med.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
William Hughes
2005-05-19 00:21:46 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 18 May 2005 13:32:17 -0500, in sci.military.naval "DH"
Post by DH
Wahoo : The Patrols of America's Most Famous World War II Submarine -- by
RICHARD O'KANE. OK, I haven't read this but I'll bet it's good. I'm going
to see if I can get the local library to track down a copy of this for me.
"Wake of the Wahoo" by Forrest J. Sterling. Life aboard a WWII U.S. submarine
from the perspective of the ship's yeoman.
StewartMcI
2005-05-20 21:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
X-Craft Raid. I can't remember the author's name and I think I no
longer have this book. British midget subs attack the Tirpitz at her
well-protected dock in Norway. Absolutely fascinating, if true, but
I'm not sure if this was or wasn't fiction. Very imaginative, if
fiction. Well written.
Post by DH
If anybody's familiar with this book, I'd appreciate knowing if it was
fact or fiction.

"The X-Craft Raid" is by Thomas Gallagher and was published in the U.K.
as "Against All Odds".

Definitely NOT fiction, although written in a somewhat dramatized,
journalistic style.

These five gentlemen received two Victoria Crosses, three appointments
to the D.S.O., and one Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for their real-life
efforts which took the "Tirpitz" out of the war sor several critical
months.

home.comcast.net/~abdn-001/Goddard0.jpg

My apologies for the poor quality of the photograph, taken through
glass.

A better account is in "Above Us the Waves" by Warren & Benson.

Stewart
StewartMcI
2005-05-20 21:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by DH
X-Craft Raid. I can't remember the author's name and I think I no longer
have this book. British midget subs attack the Tirpitz at her
well-protected dock in Norway. Absolutely fascinating, if true, but I'm not
sure if this was or wasn't fiction. Very imaginative, if fiction.
Well
Post by DH
written.
If anybody's familiar with this book, I'd appreciate knowing if it was fact
or fiction.
"The X-Craft Raid" is by Thomas Gallagher and was published in the U.K.
as "Against All Odds". Definitely NOT fiction, although written in a
somewhat dramatized, journalistic style.

These five gentlemen received two Victoria Crosses, three appointments
to the D.S.O., and one Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for their real-life
efforts which took the "Tirpitz" out of the war for several critical
months.

Loading Image...

My apologies for the poor quality of the photograph, taken through
glass. The "midget" is the one previously at "Dolphin" and now at the
R.N. Submarine Museum in Gosport.

A better account is in "Above Us the Waves" by Warren & Benson.

Stewart
DH
2005-05-24 13:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@aol.com
Post by DH
X-Craft Raid. I can't remember the author's name and I think I no
longer
Post by DH
have this book. British midget subs attack the Tirpitz at her
well-protected dock in Norway. Absolutely fascinating, if true, but
I'm not
Post by DH
sure if this was or wasn't fiction. Very imaginative, if fiction.
Well
Post by DH
written.
If anybody's familiar with this book, I'd appreciate knowing if it
was fact
Post by DH
or fiction.
"The X-Craft Raid" is by Thomas Gallagher and was published in the U.K.
as "Against All Odds". Definitely NOT fiction, although written in a
somewhat dramatized, journalistic style.
These five gentlemen received two Victoria Crosses, three appointments
to the D.S.O., and one Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for their real-life
efforts which took the "Tirpitz" out of the war for several critical
months.
http://home.comcast.net/~abdn-001/Goddard0.jpg
My apologies for the poor quality of the photograph, taken through
glass. The "midget" is the one previously at "Dolphin" and now at the
R.N. Submarine Museum in Gosport.
A better account is in "Above Us the Waves" by Warren & Benson.
Stewart
Thanks. I'll be putting that on my "to-read" list.
David Phillips
2005-05-18 18:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Novels about the Sea (but very, very little in the area of undersea
warfare)

1 - 21 The Patrick O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin novels
T22. Patrick O'Brian "The Golden Ocean"
T22. Patrick O'Brian "The Unknown Shore"
ray o'hara
2005-05-18 19:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
the cruel sea, by montserrat,
away all boats, by kenneth dodson
the sand pebbles by richard mckenna
Keith W
2005-05-18 20:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
Bye
Raffaele
Top of the list for me remains The Cruel Sea by Nicholas Montserrat
followed closely by one of his other books Three Corvettes

Second I think would be HMS Ulysses by Alastair Maclean.
Unlike most of his output its a dark tale set during the height
of the U-Boat war on the Murmansk run. Its apparently based
on his own WW2 experiences and while its very gritty indeed
its worth sticking with.

Next would probably be Run Silent, Run Deep by Ed Beach

In close pursuit would be the Hornblower series, the books
of Patrick O'Brian (The Commodore, The Far Side of the World etc)

One of the earliest naval books I read was Masterman Ready by
Captain Marryat, I really will have to try and get more of his books
but they are hard to find

Most of the books by Douglas Reeman (and his nom de plume
Alexander Kent).

Last but not least A Twist of Sand by Geoffrey Jenkins
which is about anadvanced experimental German U-Boat
operating in South African waters.

Keith
Greg
2005-05-19 03:19:23 UTC
Permalink
I'm surprised that along with all the othewr book mentioned, The Cruel
Sea, Beach's works (and he wrote 2 sequels to Run Silent Run Deep ----
Dust on the Sea and Cold is the Sea IIRC), but no one (so far) has
mentioned The Captain, by Jan de Hartog. I have a very tattered copy
that I've read more times than I can count.

It's written from the viewpoint of a Dutch tugboat capt. during and
after WWII. Well worth reading IMO.

Greg Phillips
TOliver
2005-05-19 04:39:07 UTC
Permalink
but no one (so far) has mentioned The Captain, by Jan de Hartog. I have a
very tattered copy that I've read more times than I can count.
But they should have, a greatly under-rated tale.

Day in, day out, _The Cruel Sea_ is tough to take from my top shelf. I now
have three copies, onea "first" the other two "mint", one in an unfased
jacket also untouched by time.

Captain Aubrey's best for trips, especially cruises, and the new hard bound
set in 6 volumes is expensive, but far cheaper than the individual novels,
even the premium paperbacks. "Adult reading" in the sense that the reader
already widely read and with a fair academic backgound (an old fashion
liberal education) will be more comfortable.

The Hornblower series represents the perfect gift for a boy of 12 or so
interested in the sea. He'll keep it forever and read it again when older,
but like sex, it never tastes quite as good as it did the first time.

A "sleeper"..... dating from the early 60s, IIRC, _The Long Fight_, D. A.
Rayner, 1958 (who gave us _The Enemy Below_ which became one of the finest
WWII navy movies, and _Escort, the Battle of the Atlantic_), a continuing
series of actions between a British frigate and a French heavy frigate in
the Indian Ocean, a fine little gem of a novel.

Of the WWII naval era, many of the non-fiction memoirs may be short on
poetic English, but not on derring-do, more than most fiction and nearly as
enthralling.

.....an old USAian pot boiler, _The Admiral_ (Martin Dibner?).

....and a new memoir favorite, _In the Hands of Fate, PATWING 10,
8DEC41-11MAY42_, a war you'll be glad to have missed an invitation to
attend.

Conrad's not much popular these days, and should be read from a "purist"
approach, no modern conveniences but a good light and a better bottle of
whisky. When a politically inclined potboiler is based upon a Conrad story
line, Conrad suffers and the movie emerges as the less for it (especially
when it features the world's most over-rated actor, Marline Brandy-o, a
young slob grown into a fat cartoon).

Things (better than books) I'd like to do before I die.....

30 days in the Caribbean in a topsail schooner, running down the islands to
see the world that Forester, Morrison, O'Brian and others have so
colorfully dewscribed).

90 days in the Med with plenty of gash (both the US and Brit meanings), a
crammed liquor locker, a covered grill mounted on the fantail stanchions, a
selection of good steaks, in a "motor launch" about the size of a Fairmile
with all the conveniences (and good for 14 knots over the ground, enough for
liesurely steaming), and a reclinable "Captain's Chair" looted from Business
Class of a good airline, mounted on a swivel the port side of the Bridge.

.....and just once more, to stand in the open French doors to the hotel
balcony overlooking the bay in which nestle Rapallo, Sta Margarita and
Portofino, looking out at my ship anchored (Steel gray and about to be
underway) in the bay, the long gauze curtains billowing in the breeze, a
behind me a tousled bed literally reeking of the sort of frenzied sex which
a couple of weeks at sea and being 22 permits (and with her sun-tanned leg,
bare to the hip, peeking from beneath the wrinkled sheets).

Only the recall of those moments elevates life from a mundane journey of
mere mortality to the golden voyages of the Immortals.

TMO



TMO
Graeme Wall
2005-05-19 07:35:59 UTC
Permalink
but no one (so far) has mentioned The Captain, by Jan de Hartog. I have a
very tattered copy that I've read more times than I can count.
Isn't that Captain Jan? about a salvage tug skipper IIRC, lost my copy 30
years ago and never seen another. Amother book I remember from the 50s is
The Commander Shall by Humphrey ? set on a P&O liner en route to Australia.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 08:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg
I'm surprised that along with all the othewr book mentioned, The Cruel
Sea, Beach's works (and he wrote 2 sequels to Run Silent Run Deep ----
Dust on the Sea and Cold is the Sea IIRC), but no one (so far) has
mentioned The Captain, by Jan de Hartog. I have a very tattered copy
that I've read more times than I can count.
It's written from the viewpoint of a Dutch tugboat capt. during and
after WWII. Well worth reading IMO.
An /excellent/ book, and shame on me for forgetting it. He also
wrote "Captain Jan" which covers WW1 a bit. Also recommended.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Andy Spark
2005-05-19 12:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
who has been through BRNC will agree. Well, we all thought it was far
too close to the truth for comfort anyway, even if that was back in
1990... I suppose things could have changed by now.
Andrew Robert Breen
2005-05-19 19:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval connection)
I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of the great
literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of hois stuff is
worth a look.

Question - in these days of the war on terrorism, would anyone publish
"one of our warships", which is a good 'un but looks at /difficult/
situations..?
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
Graeme Wall
2005-05-19 22:39:01 UTC
Permalink
In message <d6iqet$87g6$***@central.aber.ac.uk>
***@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
[snip]
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Question - in these days of the war on terrorism, would anyone publish
"one of our warships", which is a good 'un but looks at /difficult/
situations..?
A very interesting question, I suspect most publishers would search for the
nearest barge-pole if confronted with the manuscript today.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Andy Spark
2005-05-20 10:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval connection)
I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of the great
literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of hois stuff is
worth a look.
My Uncle who was a chief cook on the Yacht once told my father that the
most accurate representation of navel life he had ever encountered was
"The Navy Lark" on Radio 2. I didn't believe him. Then I put a blue suit
on.......
Peter McLelland
2005-05-23 08:00:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Spark
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval connection)
I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of the great
literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of hois stuff is
worth a look.
My Uncle who was a chief cook on the Yacht once told my father that the
most accurate representation of navel life he had ever encountered was
"The Navy Lark" on Radio 2. I didn't believe him. Then I put a blue suit
on.......
Having served on HMS Troubridge, and met several of the cast I also know
where many of the script ideas came from.

Peter
Graeme Wall
2005-05-23 08:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andy Spark
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Post by Andy Spark
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare? All I've read is
"The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy
John Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as
any one
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval
connection) I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of
the great literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of
hois stuff is worth a look.
My Uncle who was a chief cook on the Yacht once told my father that the
most accurate representation of navel life he had ever encountered was
"The Navy Lark" on Radio 2. I didn't believe him. Then I put a blue suit
on.......
Having served on HMS Troubridge, and met several of the cast I also know
where many of the script ideas came from.
So which one are you, CPO Pertwee perhaps?

I can see SH as Ramona somehow...
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Peter McLelland
2005-05-23 10:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andy Spark
In article
In article
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare? All I've read is
"The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy
John Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as
any one
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval
connection) I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of
the great literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of
hois stuff is worth a look.
My Uncle who was a chief cook on the Yacht once told my father that the
most accurate representation of navel life he had ever encountered was
"The Navy Lark" on Radio 2. I didn't believe him. Then I put a blue suit
on.......
Having served on HMS Troubridge, and met several of the cast I also know
where many of the script ideas came from.
So which one are you, CPO Pertwee perhaps?
Oh I was nothing like as important as that, being a mere lowly midshipman in
those days.

Peter
Keith W
2005-05-23 12:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Oh I was nothing like as important as that, being a mere lowly midshipman in
those days.
Peter
Ah Shades of "left hand down a bit" perhaps :)

Keith



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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William Black
2005-05-23 16:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
So which one are you, CPO Pertwee perhaps?
Didn't CPO Pertwee find an old Police Box at the back of the stores one
day...
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea
Keith W
2005-05-23 19:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Black
Post by Graeme Wall
So which one are you, CPO Pertwee perhaps?
Didn't CPO Pertwee find an old Police Box at the back of the stores one
day...
Indeed - during the 70's he was moonlighting :)

Keith
Andy Spark
2005-05-27 11:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter McLelland
Post by Andy Spark
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
Speaking only from the outside (but from a family with naval connection)
I'd agree. Vastly entertaining (the Artful Bodger is one of the great
literary creations). Winton is very readable anyway. Most of hois stuff
is
Post by Andy Spark
Post by Andrew Robert Breen
worth a look.
My Uncle who was a chief cook on the Yacht once told my father that the
most accurate representation of navel life he had ever encountered was
"The Navy Lark" on Radio 2. I didn't believe him. Then I put a blue suit
on.......
Having served on HMS Troubridge, and met several of the cast I also know
where many of the script ideas came from.
And many of the audience by all accounts!

Peter Skelton
2005-05-19 20:02:33 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:40:19 +0100, Andy Spark
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
who has been through BRNC will agree. Well, we all thought it was far
too close to the truth for comfort anyway, even if that was back in
1990... I suppose things could have changed by now.
What was the WWII series that centered on a seaman who said
"shave off" all the time? All I can remember about it is that he
was posted to a number of interesting craft and that they were
good reads.

Peter Skelton
Michael P. Reed
2005-05-20 03:48:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:40:19 +0100, Andy Spark
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
who has been through BRNC will agree. Well, we all thought it was far
too close to the truth for comfort anyway, even if that was back in
1990... I suppose things could have changed by now.
Has anyone else read HMS Leviathan? It is about the XO (Commander?)
of the RN's latest greatest and biggest hoodoo of an aircraft carrier.
Written in the early sixties. I thought it pretty good.
--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed
TOliver
2005-05-20 05:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Skelton
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:40:19 +0100, Andy Spark
Post by Andy Spark
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
who has been through BRNC will agree. Well, we all thought it was far
too close to the truth for comfort anyway, even if that was back in
1990... I suppose things could have changed by now.
Has anyone else read HMS Leviathan? It is about the XO (Commander?)
of the RN's latest greatest and biggest hoodoo of an aircraft carrier.
Written in the early sixties. I thought it pretty good.
That's one I'd forgotten (and unlikely to see at used book sales and the
like). Forty years away likely makes it worth a reread.

TMO
Andy Spark
2005-05-20 10:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael P. Reed
Post by Andy Spark
For the most accurate depiction of life in the post WW2 Royal Navy John
Winton's "We Joined the Navy" series is impossible to beat, as any one
who has been through BRNC will agree. Well, we all thought it was far
too close to the truth for comfort anyway, even if that was back in
1990... I suppose things could have changed by now.
Has anyone else read HMS Leviathan? It is about the XO (Commander?)
of the RN's latest greatest and biggest hoodoo of an aircraft carrier.
Written in the early sixties. I thought it pretty good.
Yes it was. I rather enjoyed it too. One of the reviewers wrote "For
Aircraft Carrier, read Country" -And I think that it is a fair comment
John Redman
2005-05-20 11:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@gmail.com
Some good novels about sea and undersea warfare?
All I've read is "The Hunt for Red October"...
C S Forester's 'Brown on Resolution' is a good 'un - it's about a WW1 sailor
who pins down a German cruiser armed with nothing but a rifle.
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