Need 1890's French Naval Ordnance Info

[old hoodoo]

I am looking for references on French Naval Ordnance around 1890-1895,
primarily looking for pics of Schnieder and Canet 14cm guns and their
QF ammuninition. Can't find anything on the net, but assume there have
to be some French language books somewhere in France.

[Peter Skelton]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 08:52:27 -0600, old hoodoo

Post by old hoodoo
I am looking for references on French Naval Ordnance around 1890-1895,
primarily looking for pics of Schnieder and Canet 14cm guns and their
QF ammuninition. Can't find anything on the net, but assume there have
to be some French language books somewhere in France.

138.6 of the right period

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_55-45_m1891.htm

no pictures, the site says data is from "Naval Weapons of World
War Two" by John Campbell.

Doubt this helps, you probably already went there

Peter Skelton

[old hoodoo]

Post by Peter Skelton
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 08:52:27 -0600, old hoodoo

Post by old hoodoo
I am looking for references on French Naval Ordnance around 1890-1895,
primarily looking for pics of Schnieder and Canet 14cm guns and their
QF ammuninition. Can't find anything on the net, but assume there have
to be some French language books somewhere in France.

138.6 of the right period
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_55-45_m1891.htm
no pictures, the site says data is from "Naval Weapons of World
War Two" by John Campbell.
Doubt this helps, you probably already went there
Peter Skelton

I forgot to look here...and this site is usually my first site!!!!
Thanks for the reference, although I find that the site lists them as
firing separate ammunition. It is my understanding the Honotoria 5.5's
converted by Schneider to QF had
fixed ammo, but this is one step closer to the information I am looking
for.

[Christophe Chazot]

"old hoodoo" <***@cox-internet.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
e%qFf.349632$***@dukeread06...
(snip)

I forgot to look here...and this site is usually my first site!!!! Thanks
for the reference, although I find that the site lists them as firing
separate ammunition. It is my understanding the Honotoria 5.5's converted
by Schneider to QF had
fixed ammo, but this is one step closer to the information I am looking
for.

No, it had separate ammo and charge. Because a fixed ammo would have been
too heavy.

Yours,
C

[old hoodoo]

Post by Christophe Chazot
(snip)

I forgot to look here...and this site is usually my first site!!!! Thanks
for the reference, although I find that the site lists them as firing
separate ammunition. It is my understanding the Honotoria 5.5's converted
by Schneider to QF had
fixed ammo, but this is one step closer to the information I am looking
for.

No, it had separate ammo and charge. Because a fixed ammo would have been
too heavy.
Yours,
C

There is one photo extant of a 5.5 round for the Hontoria, lying next to
a gun on one of the burned out Spanish cruisers...the round appears to
be fixed, not separate.

5 inch rounds were fixed. 5.5 is kind of a 'tween round. Six inch at
100 lbs were separate, 5" at 50 lbs were fixed, 5.5's, at approximately
75 lbs....

[Christophe Chazot]

"old hoodoo" <***@cox-internet.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
22XFf.353447$***@dukeread06...
(snip)

Post by old hoodoo
There is one photo extant of a 5.5 round for the Hontoria, lying next to
a gun on one of the burned out Spanish cruisers...the round appears to be
fixed, not separate.
5 inch rounds were fixed. 5.5 is kind of a 'tween round. Six inch at
100 lbs were separate, 5" at 50 lbs were fixed, 5.5's, at approximately
75 lbs....

... all 138.6 mm ammo in the French navy between 1890 and the MOGADOR class
(included) had separate shell and propellant, for the reason I quote. This
led to abandon this calibre in the KLEBER class that was to follow the
MOGADOR because they were to have fully automated ammunition hoisting
chains. The 138.6 projectile (shell + propellant) was between 89.5 and 80.5
lbs, the last being the weight of the 1891 model.
All this is clearly stated in John Campbell's Naval Weapons of WW2, Conway
Maritime Press, if you want to check.

Bien à vous,
Christophe Chazot

[old hoodoo]

Post by Christophe Chazot
(snip)

Post by old hoodoo
There is one photo extant of a 5.5 round for the Hontoria, lying next to
a gun on one of the burned out Spanish cruisers...the round appears to be
fixed, not separate.
5 inch rounds were fixed. 5.5 is kind of a 'tween round. Six inch at
100 lbs were separate, 5" at 50 lbs were fixed, 5.5's, at approximately
75 lbs....

... all 138.6 mm ammo in the French navy between 1890 and the MOGADOR class
(included) had separate shell and propellant, for the reason I quote. This
led to abandon this calibre in the KLEBER class that was to follow the
MOGADOR because they were to have fully automated ammunition hoisting
chains. The 138.6 projectile (shell + propellant) was between 89.5 and 80.5
lbs, the last being the weight of the 1891 model.
All this is clearly stated in John Campbell's Naval Weapons of WW2, Conway
Maritime Press, if you want to check.
Bien à vous,
Christophe Chazot

Well, that is French Navy and perhaps even the later Hontoria 5.5's made
by Canet for Spain. But it appears the Schnieder Hontoria conversions
for the Spanish in 1892 may have been a fixed round...which was a
troublesome round.

[Christophe Chazot]

There's a picture of the port side of CARNOT at quay in Brest in 1905 on
which you can clearly see the three side turrets of 138.6, 274 and 138.6 mm
respectively. By the way, because the guns are in armoured cylindrical
turrets, no mechanism is visible. Other pictures of BOUVET, MASSENA,
JAUREGUIBERRY, CHARLEMAGNE, SAINT-LOUIS and GAULOIS show the same guns in
single and twin turrets, but the pictures are external, overall side views
and no detail of the breech is visible. All of this is in "Cent ans de
cuirassés français" by Eric Gille, Marines Editions, ISBN 2 909 675 50 5, on
pages 91 through 99.

A better picture shows a deck-mounted 138.6 in open mount being operated
during a drill, with breech opened, but I suspect it is an older type. It's
on "Au cartahu", by Jean-Charles Meyer, Editions Serres, ISBN 2-86410-057-6,
on page 81. It's a book of ancient postcards, no technical details are
given.

As Peter Skelton told it, there are a (very) few technical data on the 1891
model in John Campbell's "Naval Weapons of WW II", with line drawings of
more recent mountings (BRETAGNE class). Propellant and shell were separated,
not in a single cartridge (that's also obvious on the last picture I
quoted).

If you are interested in the pictures, let me know, I'll try and put my
scanner back to working order.

Regards,
Christophe Chazot

Post by old hoodoo
I am looking for references on French Naval Ordnance around 1890-1895,
primarily looking for pics of Schnieder and Canet 14cm guns and their
QF ammuninition. Can't find anything on the net, but assume there have to
be some French language books somewhere in France.

[old hoodoo]

Post by Christophe Chazot
There's a picture of the port side of CARNOT at quay in Brest in 1905 on
which you can clearly see the three side turrets of 138.6, 274 and 138.6 mm
respectively. By the way, because the guns are in armoured cylindrical
turrets, no mechanism is visible. Other pictures of BOUVET, MASSENA,
JAUREGUIBERRY, CHARLEMAGNE, SAINT-LOUIS and GAULOIS show the same guns in
single and twin turrets, but the pictures are external, overall side views
and no detail of the breech is visible. All of this is in "Cent ans de
cuirassés français" by Eric Gille, Marines Editions, ISBN 2 909 675 50 5, on
pages 91 through 99.
A better picture shows a deck-mounted 138.6 in open mount being operated
during a drill, with breech opened, but I suspect it is an older type. It's
on "Au cartahu", by Jean-Charles Meyer, Editions Serres, ISBN 2-86410-057-6,
on page 81. It's a book of ancient postcards, no technical details are
given.
As Peter Skelton told it, there are a (very) few technical data on the 1891
model in John Campbell's "Naval Weapons of WW II", with line drawings of
more recent mountings (BRETAGNE class). Propellant and shell were separated,
not in a single cartridge (that's also obvious on the last picture I
quoted).
If you are interested in the pictures, let me know, I'll try and put my
scanner back to working order.
Regards,
Christophe Chazot

Post by old hoodoo
I am looking for references on French Naval Ordnance around 1890-1895,
primarily looking for pics of Schnieder and Canet 14cm guns and their
QF ammuninition. Can't find anything on the net, but assume there have to
be some French language books somewhere in France.

I am interested in any scans. I'd like to compare them to the 5.5
Hontoria guns that were modified by Schnieder to QF around 1892.