US Navy warship production hits 25-year low, falls behind China: 'A terrible state'

[P. Coonan]

Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

“I don’t see a fast, easy way to get out of this problem. It’s taken us a
long time to get into it,” Eric Labs, a longtime naval analyst at the
Congressional Budget Office, told ABC News, adding that the Navy’s
shipbuilding was now in “a terrible state.”

The comments come as last-minute design changes, cost overruns, and an
inability to recruit and retain employees to build ships has slowed
production at the same time the US faces expanding global threats at sea.

The ABC News report cites a Marinette Marine contract as just one of the
many examples of the struggles of the Navy to meet production.

According to the report, the shipmaker is under contract to build six
guided-missile frigates with an option to build four more, but with its
current workforce can only produce one ship per year.

Issues such as the one faced by Marinette Marine have been widespread
throughout the country, with shipyards turning to creative solutions such
as offering training academies or partnering with technical colleges to
get more workers the skills they need to build the Navy’s high-tech
vessels.

Navy Secretary Carlos Del Toro has touted such programs, the report notes,
even speaking during the commencement for recent graduates at a community
college that partnered with Portsmouth Naval Shipyard to teach students to
repair nuclear submarines.

“It is incumbent upon all of us to consider how we can best lend our
talents and, in the case of the graduates, their newly developed skills,
to build up our great nation for all Americans, and defend against the
threats and challenges of today,” he said at the ceremony.

Part of the $100 million in Navy funding provided to Marinette Marine is
being used for retention bonuses, underscoring the importance of retaining
a shipbuilding workforce.

The report also notes that much of the blame is with the Navy itself,
which frequently changes the design requirements of ships after companies
have begun construction.

Yet despite vows to learn from those mistakes, the Navy redesigned 85% of
the ships being built by Marinette Marine, resulting in cost increases and
delays.

The report comes after a US Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) slide
leaked online showed last year that the rapidly expanding Chinese Navy has
the capacity to produce ships at 200 times the rate of the United States.

“The Chinese see this decade as a strategic opportunity,” Brent Sadler,
senior research fellow for naval warfare and advanced technology in the
Center for National Defense at the Heritage Foundation, told Fox News
Digital at the time. “I don’t see any near-term bending of the curve where
we actually start closing the gap with the Chinese.”

But the Navy said it is taking the problem seriously, with a spokesperson
for Del Toro telling ABC News that the service is looking for more
“creative solutions” to the problem.

“The Navy’s role in defending our nation and promoting peace has never
been more expansive or mattered more,” said Lt. Kyle Hanton. “We continue
to work with our industry partners to identify creative solutions to
solving our common challenges.”

The Navy did not immediately respond to a Fox News Digital request for
comment.

Conversation

Kevin Parlato
23 hours ago

I think that our shipbuilding capacity has gone down due to not having a
diverse, equitable, and inclusive workplace, and management teams in
place. Clearly the Chinese are decades ahead of us in their DEI hiring
practices.

Terry Nongiven
23 hours ago

You're not far off. Newport News Shipbuilding has shifted to a huge
emphasis on DEI and that may very matter more than "Are you a good welder"
when it is replaced with "Are you MINORITY that would like a job welding"
that is an unnecessary burden placed upon our companies - but POLITICS
wins shipbuilding contracts!

Michael Vaughn
22 hours ago

China will fear our Lipstick Brigade...

Terry Nongiven
23 hours ago

I proudly served in Ronald Reagan's 600 ship navy!

Vietnam had a detrimental effect on the Nation's look upon the military
and I come from a line of Navy veterans. While I was in High school -
President Carter was President, and he had no head for meeting the Soviet
challenge head on, so he did NOTHING to rebuild our our forces.

President Reagan was determined to meet the Soviet challenge head on and
promised to build a 600 ship Navy (He did it too) and as he predicted,
with America willing to stand up - the Soviet Union ended up on "The ash
heap of history".

President Reagan - Greatest President of the 20th Century!

https://nypost.com/2024/08/11/us-news/us-navy-warship-production-hits-25-
year-low-falls-behind-china-a-terrible-state/

[RichA]

I'd like to know why Trump didn't do anything about this when he had 4 years
to fix it and why he hasn't said anything about it during his campaign stump
speeches lately. Don't believe him when he says he hates the Chinese, he
loves them and even has his very own bank account there to make sending
payments easier for them.

[[e-mail]]

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.
“I don’t see a fast, easy way to get out of this problem. It’s taken us a
long time to get into it,” Eric Labs, a longtime naval analyst at the
Congressional Budget Office, told ABC News, adding that the Navy’s
shipbuilding was now in “a terrible state.”
The comments come as last-minute design changes, cost overruns, and an
inability to recruit and retain employees to build ships has slowed
production at the same time the US faces expanding global threats at sea.

Well, sheer VOLUME isn't necessarily everything ...
quality, capability, count more - up to a point.

It is said the shiny new Chinese fleet IS pretty
capable, all the latest tech. This makes any
serious imbalance in numbers more serious. The
Chinese commanders and crew may, or may not, be
any good ... won't know until, and that's a bad
time to find out.

I'd also have concerns that China may have some
neat-o tech WE don't - like autonomous attack
drones. That'd complicate things.

In any case, western nations are not nearly as
rich as they used to be. One Brit general said
the UK had about enough ammo to fight Russia
for ONE day - and insofar as UK ship-building
it looks like their big shiny new carrier is
such trash it may have to BE trashed.

The USA lives in DeficitLand too. That's how
it's all devolved since WW2 and we're kinda
stuck with the situation. A dozen Trumps could
not rectify this mess - too deep, too wide,
too 'systemic'. It'll all hold together by
whatever tricks for as long as it does.

Hmmm ... if we stuck to real money, the USA
would have stalled out somewhere in the early
to mid 70s ... 1776 to 1976 and not much
'modernization' thereafter.

[Siri Cruise]

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

[Governor Swill]

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.

I'm not worried.

#nevertrump

So ... MAGA says Kamala can't be President because her parents were immigrants. But,
they're fine that Trump's mother was born in Scotland?
Got it.

[J Carlson]

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

[Governor Swill]

Post by J Carlson

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

They have more ships, we have more tonnage.
Our technology is newer and more advanced, theirs is based on old Soviet tech.
We two things they don't: Centuries of naval experience and success, and allies.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by J Carlson

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

They have more ships, we have more tonnage. Our technology is newer and more
Centuries of naval experience and success, and allies.

Actually, the development of new Navy ships seems to be foundering. For
example:

The Navy originally planned to build 32 Zumwalts, but the number was
reduced to 24 and then to eight due to cost. The average construction cost
per ship increased to $4.24 billion, which was more than the cost of a
nuclear-powered Virginia-class submarine. The total program cost was $22.5
billion in April 2016, which was $7.5 billion per ship.

I'll let your curiosity lead you to online references.

[Governor Swill]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by J Carlson

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

They have more ships, we have more tonnage. Our technology is newer and more
Centuries of naval experience and success, and allies.

Actually, the development of new Navy ships seems to be foundering. For
The Navy originally planned to build 32 Zumwalts, but the number was
reduced to 24 and then to eight due to cost. The average construction cost
per ship increased to $4.24 billion, which was more than the cost of a
nuclear-powered Virginia-class submarine. The total program cost was $22.5
billion in April 2016, which was $7.5 billion per ship.
I'll let your curiosity lead you to online references.

I thought Zumwalt had been canceled altogether. One of it's main pluses was its radical
new gun until they figured out firing it cost a million per round.

Not to mention all the other stuff that went wrong including the overruns.

That said, taken as a technical exercise (kind of like the Bugatti Veyron), they learned a
lot from it.

#nevertrump

How to feed the baby. (hilarious!)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DzRcI3Q5z34

[[e-mail]]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by J Carlson

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

They have more ships, we have more tonnage. Our technology is newer and more
Centuries of naval experience and success, and allies.

Actually, the development of new Navy ships seems to be foundering. For
The Navy originally planned to build 32 Zumwalts, but the number was
reduced to 24 and then to eight due to cost. The average construction cost
per ship increased to $4.24 billion, which was more than the cost of a
nuclear-powered Virginia-class submarine. The total program cost was $22.5
billion in April 2016, which was $7.5 billion per ship.
I'll let your curiosity lead you to online references.

Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
command - are also VERY important.

The USA has an advantage over much of the post-Soviet
hardware. However good commanders can narrow that gap,
Soviet-era captains weren't fools.

The BIG question these days is the quality of the
CHINESE fleet. Their navy is relatively new - all
the latest tech (likely including some stuff we
can't guess). The quality of the commanders/crew
is unknown ... but they COULD be a nasty surprise.

In short, worry less about the Russia navy and more
about the Chinese navy.

FULLY-autonomous attack drones - air and undersea -
is a BIG danger from China. By all reports they
seem to be at least five years ahead of western
nations here. The Chinese CAN make kinda literally
intelligent torpedoes ... while western defenses
still revolve around detecting large subs. Chinese
mil "AI" chips are now into their 3rd gen. They
have the cash, they have the tech, they have the
production facilities. Xi sees his Destiny as
being Lord Of The Pacific - and beyond.

What would US ships DO if attacked by dozens of
aerial AND torpedo "AI" devices ? SINK likely.
Drones are CHEAP and DANGEROUS. MAYbe it's time
to re-think our navies ? Battleships became
obsolete ... now I think it's CARRIERS. Too
big, too slow, too much investment, fat targets.
Many smaller ships - missile/drone platforms -
may be smarter. Times change. Just sayin'

Oh, poster, I'll make sure some version of this
goes to alt.politics.republicans :-)

[Governor Swill]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by J Carlson

Post by Governor Swill

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by P. Coonan
Navy shipbuilding has had its worst production in 25 years, putting the US
behind rival China in production pace.

So fucking what. Our Navy size should be what our country needs,
not keeping up with Jones.

We've got the Gerald Ford, they've got the Graf Spee.
I'm not worried.

The type of ships we're lacking are not what we need to counter China.

They have more ships, we have more tonnage. Our technology is newer and more
Centuries of naval experience and success, and allies.

Actually, the development of new Navy ships seems to be foundering. For
The Navy originally planned to build 32 Zumwalts, but the number was
reduced to 24 and then to eight due to cost. The average construction cost
per ship increased to $4.24 billion, which was more than the cost of a
nuclear-powered Virginia-class submarine. The total program cost was $22.5
billion in April 2016, which was $7.5 billion per ship.
I'll let your curiosity lead you to online references.

Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
command - are also VERY important.
The USA has an advantage over much of the post-Soviet
hardware. However good commanders can narrow that gap,
Soviet-era captains weren't fools.
The BIG question these days is the quality of the
CHINESE fleet. Their navy is relatively new - all
the latest tech (likely including some stuff we
can't guess). The quality of the commanders/crew
is unknown ... but they COULD be a nasty surprise.
In short, worry less about the Russia navy and more
about the Chinese navy.
FULLY-autonomous attack drones - air and undersea -
is a BIG danger from China. By all reports they
seem to be at least five years ahead of western
nations here. The Chinese CAN make kinda literally
intelligent torpedoes ... while western defenses
still revolve around detecting large subs. Chinese
mil "AI" chips are now into their 3rd gen. They
have the cash, they have the tech, they have the
production facilities. Xi sees his Destiny as
being Lord Of The Pacific - and beyond.
What would US ships DO if attacked by dozens of
aerial AND torpedo "AI" devices ? SINK likely.
Drones are CHEAP and DANGEROUS. MAYbe it's time
to re-think our navies ? Battleships became
obsolete ... now I think it's CARRIERS. Too
big, too slow, too much investment, fat targets.
Many smaller ships - missile/drone platforms -
may be smarter. Times change. Just sayin'
Oh, poster, I'll make sure some version of this
goes to alt.politics.republicans :-)

China's tech is based on Russia's but don't let that fool you. Admiral Kusnetzov may be a
piece of junk but it's Chinese sister ship is a first rate piece of work. As world powers
go, Russia is a has been that will be rapidly absorbed by China if Putin has his way.

#nevertrump
Hold my beer
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1rSCNgmaqxc>

[Siri Cruise]

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

  In short, worry less about the Russia navy and more
  about the Chinese navy.

Ukraine can deal with the russian navy.

  FULLY-autonomous attack drones - air and undersea -

Beware of the attack of the adjectives. Ukraine is doing a lot of
damage with FULLY human operator drones.

  What would US ships DO if attacked by dozens of
  aerial AND torpedo "AI" devices ? SINK likely.

AI? The horror. The horror.

  Drones are CHEAP and DANGEROUS. MAYbe it's time
  to re-think our navies ? Battleships became
  obsolete ... now I think it's CARRIERS. Too

USN deploys various gatling guns and small caliber cannons. The
hope and intent is those can stop any incoming air or near surface
attack. How well they will work is unknown until the first time
they work or fail to work. The danger is not ignored.

[NoBody]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Post by Siri Cruise

  In short, worry less about the Russia navy and more
  about the Chinese navy.

Ukraine can deal with the russian navy.

We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

[Siri Cruise]

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

[Governor Swill]

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

[Governor Swill]

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

Satellites can tell what color your underwear is when you bend over to pick up the ball.

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

They don't equal ours but I'm sure the Pentagon has matters well in hand.

#nevertrump

[NoBody]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:16:27 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

The overarching point is lost on you. We can not hide from what is
going on in the world. Doing so creates the problem you're seeking to
avoid.

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

What that's just foolish...

[NoBody]

Post by NoBody
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:16:27 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

The overarching point is lost on you. We can not hide from what is
going on in the world. Doing so creates the problem you're seeking to
avoid.

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

What that's just foolish...

And the drunk is silent.

[Dex]

Post by NoBody

Post by NoBody
On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 17:16:27 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 06:03:40 -0700, Siri Cruise

Post by Siri Cruise

  Numbers are KIND OF relevant. QUALITY - both tech AND
  command - are also VERY important.

What's relevant is what the missions we intend to give USN. We use
to have paddle wheel aircraft carriers. That mission was changed
so we got rid of those. We don't have any deployable battle ships,
nor do we need them until the aliens invade.

You kind of sound like those people who said similar...right before
World War II started.

Which could never happen again because satellites can watch an
enemy fleet sailing across an ocean.

The overarching point is lost on you. We can not hide from what is
going on in the world. Doing so creates the problem you're seeking to
avoid.

Post by Siri Cruise

Post by NoBody
We need to be concerned with BOTH of them. They have intentions that
don't bode well for our country.

I don't care about their intentions. What are their capabilities?

What that's just foolish...

And the drunk is silent.

Kremlin Girl / Bit of Nothingness petulantly and childishly whines again that
she's being ignored.

[Gronk]

Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to constant
requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.

A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project expands
at weekly meetings.

[Governor Swill]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to constant
requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.
A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project expands
at weekly meetings.

The Navy has settled on Frigates and Destroyers instead of heavier ships or the
specialty litorral combat ships that didn't work out. The Chinese have more
ships, but they have less tonnage and less advanced technology.


Scaramucci on why he thinks Trump may drop out. Calls him "small penis people".
(Video less than 60 seconds)
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pFqymys5GGY>
--
#NEVERtrump

[Juergen Nieveler]

Post by Governor Swill
The Navy has settled on Frigates and Destroyers instead of heavier
ships

Mind you, what passes for a destroyer today would have been called a
cruiser as late as the 1960s... and as for frigates, they've grown so
large, the upcoming German F-127 is supposed to be 160m long and with
10000 tons displacement.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Juergen Nieveler

Post by Governor Swill
The Navy has settled on Frigates and Destroyers instead of heavier
ships

Mind you, what passes for a destroyer today would have been called a
cruiser as late as the 1960s... and as for frigates, they've grown so
large, the upcoming German F-127 is supposed to be 160m long and with
10000 tons displacement.

The equation changes, constantly. We used to build
lots of battleships, then carriers ... NOW it looks
like large volumes of smaller missile/drone boats
might be much better.

Frankly, these days, a big ship is a BIG EXPENSIVE
TARGET. All sorts of systems that can take one out
and then you've lost HUGE assets. MUCH harder to
deal with 100 'hornets' instead ...

Future Navy ... not all that many humans - lots of
various drones and such. Evolution. The age of
the glorious charging knights seems to be over
for better or worse. "Terminators" from now on.
Last one to catch on to that LOSES.

Just sayin'

[[e-mail]]

Post by Juergen Nieveler

Post by Governor Swill
The Navy has settled on Frigates and Destroyers instead of heavier
ships

Mind you, what passes for a destroyer today would have been called a
cruiser as late as the 1960s... and as for frigates, they've grown so
large, the upcoming German F-127 is supposed to be 160m long and with
10000 tons displacement.

Big fat high-value TARGETS

The "hornet's nest" model IS better for this century.
Lots of small, many semi/fully-autonomous, ships carrying
nothing but drones and missiles.

'Leaders' and military like "big" - makes them feel
all manly and such. But it's the WRONG approach given
the emerging technology. We don't build battleships
anymore for GOOD REASONS. This will soon extend to
aircraft carriers and other huge ships.

And if not ... we LOSE.

So, who to elect ... who will have the BALLS and
insight to force the needed changes ?

[D. Ray]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Juergen Nieveler

Post by Governor Swill
The Navy has settled on Frigates and Destroyers instead of heavier
ships

Mind you, what passes for a destroyer today would have been called a
cruiser as late as the 1960s... and as for frigates, they've grown so
large, the upcoming German F-127 is supposed to be 160m long and with
10000 tons displacement.

Big fat high-value TARGETS
The "hornet's nest" model IS better for this century.
Lots of small, many semi/fully-autonomous, ships carrying
nothing but drones and missiles.

Who’s going to build it? Boeing? I mean, they can’t build planes anymore,
so why not ships?

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
'Leaders' and military like "big" - makes them feel
all manly and such. But it's the WRONG approach given
the emerging technology. We don't build battleships
anymore for GOOD REASONS. This will soon extend to
aircraft carriers and other huge ships.
And if not ... we LOSE.

You already lost.

<https://www.businessinsider.com/us-navy-chinas-shipbuilding-capacity-200-times-greater-than-us-2023-9>

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
So, who to elect ... who will have the BALLS and
insight to force the needed changes ?

No one. There’s no one in American politics who is willing to say “no” to
Wall Street and actually start making necessary changes. Trump won’t do it,
either. He’ll do the same shit he did last time.

[Khil Philed]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to
constant requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.
A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project
expands at weekly meetings.

That's absolutely true. A ship can change a lot from the initial
design concepts depending on many factors. Look at what happened with
the littoral ships.

[Governor Swill]

Post by Khil Philed

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to
constant requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.
A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project
expands at weekly meetings.

That's absolutely true. A ship can change a lot from the initial
design concepts depending on many factors. Look at what happened with
the littoral ships.

The US is going back to using frigates
YouTube short (60sec)
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/RpkWRN5-WY8>

--
#NEVERtrump

[[e-mail]]

Post by Khil Philed

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to
constant requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.
A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project
expands at weekly meetings.

That's absolutely true. A ship can change a lot from the initial
design concepts depending on many factors. Look at what happened with
the littoral ships.

However mods post-contract push prices up a LOT ...
and this is a fiscal/political PROBLEM.

Alas, times/tech change more RAPIDLY these days.
Something specced 5+ years ago may NOT be what
you NEED today. Dunno if there's a fix. More
'modular' initial design ???

REALLY, we need a fix !

[Governor Swill]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Khil Philed

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

To be honest, a lot of the delays and cost overruns are due to
constant requirements creep, requirements churn, and design changes.
A project gets started, and months go by as the scope of the project
expands at weekly meetings.

That's absolutely true. A ship can change a lot from the initial
design concepts depending on many factors. Look at what happened with
the littoral ships.

However mods post-contract push prices up a LOT ...
and this is a fiscal/political PROBLEM.
Alas, times/tech change more RAPIDLY these days.
Something specced 5+ years ago may NOT be what
you NEED today. Dunno if there's a fix. More
'modular' initial design ???
REALLY, we need a fix !

The Navy is going heavy into frigates. They aren't too large and are easily
retrofitted with new tech as it becomes available. One modernization is for
providing high levels of power to drive lasers and other beam weapons.

Couch surfing
<https://www.gocomics.com/mikeluckovich/2024/08/08>

--
"Of all the things that I hated about my childhood, nothing
compared to the revolving door of father figures." -- JD Vance

#NEVERtrump

[Skeeter]

In article <va98de$qb0b$***@dont-email.me>, ***@invalid.invalid
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

[Gronk]

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

[[e-mail]]

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
Venezuelan thugs - YES.

Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
sure there's much "better", but STILL .....

Oh, fixed the groups for you so it WILL go
to alt.politics.republicans as intended :-)

[Governor Swill]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
Venezuelan thugs - YES.

Oh, bullshit. The military budget always goes up. Obama was just one Democrat
who took heat from his far left wing for high military spending.

As for "trannies" and "thugs", still more hysterical right wing bullshit.

This playing on people's fears is getting old. Stop pretending you're going to
save them from some horrible social problem and come up the policy that will
solve the REAL problems people face every day.

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
sure there's much "better", but STILL .....
Oh, fixed the groups for you so it WILL go
to alt.politics.republicans as intended :-)

You're a stupid git. apr was never removed. Here's the list that Gronk got and
replied to.
Newsgroups:
sci.military.naval,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.republicans,Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.alt.politics.republicans,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc

As you can see, apr was *already in the list*. What you removed wasn't some
mysterious, embedded Usenet command, it was an invented newsgroup that some
troll put in way back. I routinely remove
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going. ... groups when I reply.

They also use several similar groups such as
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.alt.politics.democrats or
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.talk.politics.guns

Get a grip on reality, Numbers. You lost it today.

Too bad you're a chicken shit who has me killfiled; you might learn something
once in a while instead of continually reinforcing your own ignorance and
bigotry.


Oh. My. God.
MUST see this illusionist's magic trick. Turning a man into a dog on stage.
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AvGVGeN9Mv8> (Video less than 60 seconds)


--
#NEVERtrump

[Lil dwarf Rudey]

Post by Governor Swill
you're a chicken shit who has me killfiled

Governor Swill /Rudy Canoza/Lou Bricano/J Carlson/Michael A
Terrell/Chris Ahlstrom/Intelligent Party and a few dozen other socks wrote:

Multiple death threats against Trump:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path:
eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!netnews.com!s1-4.netnews.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx10.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
<ONIkO.102541$***@fx11.ams4> <***@185.151.15.190>
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otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:38:43 -0400

Oh poor me I got shot at ...

Swill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Path:
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From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
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X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:37:51 -0400


Cheer up, maybe someone else will try.

Swill

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: J Carlson <***@gmx.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: AP Lies by Ommission About Identity of Invaders Charged with
Rape, Murder of 12-Year-Old
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:35:52 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <v5f66o$1mps9$***@dont-email.me>
References: <v54h6j$39cuk$***@dont-email.me> <v54hrs$38mfs$***@dont-email.me>
<moKcnZP3dbqUm-***@giganews.com>
<v58c4f$6squ$***@dont-email.me>
<v5df1n$1caue$***@dont-email.me> <v5edju$1hv3p$***@dont-email.me>
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Xref: news.eternal-september.org alt.politics.immigration:383549
alt.politics.nationalism.white:10913 talk.politics.misc:1295918
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:3024985

Post by Governor Swill
No. I am a patriotic American who wants the country and its people to

thrive. Getting rid of Trump permanently

Post by Governor Swill
is an important step to getting there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That constitutes a DEATH THREAT against a former President, Rudey:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/871
18 U.S. Code § 871 - Threats against President and successors to the
Presidency
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail
or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any
letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any
threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon
the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice
President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office
of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or
knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the
President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the
order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.
(b)The terms “President-elect” and “Vice President-elect” as used in
this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful
candidates for the offices of President and Vice President,
respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections
held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in
accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The
phrase “other officer next in the order of succession to the office of
President” as used in this section shall mean the person next in the
order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3,
United States Code, sections 19 and 20.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 740; June 1, 1955, ch. 115, § 1, 69
Stat. 80; Pub. L. 87–829, § 1, Oct. 15, 1962, 76 Stat. 956; Pub. L.
97–297, § 2, Oct. 12, 1982, 96 Stat. 1318; Pub. L. 103–322, title
XXXIII, § 330016(1)(H), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

9-65.200 - Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency; Threats Against Former Presidents; and Certain Other Secret
Service Protectees
The Counterterrorism Section of the National Security Division has
supervisory authority over 18 U.S.C. §§ 871 and 879 cases. As great
caution must be taken in matters relating to the security of the persons
protected by 18 U.S.C. § 871, United States Attorneys are encouraged to
consult with the Counterterrorism Section (CTS) of the National Security
Division when they have doubts on the prosecutive merit of a case. For
the same reason, dismissal of complaints under 18 U.S.C. § 871, when the
defendant is in custody under the Mental Incompetency Statutes (18
U.S.C. §§ 4244, 4246), requires approval from CTS. In other cases,
United States Attorneys must consult prior to dismissing a count
involving, or entering into any sentence commitment or other case
settlement involving a § 871 charge.


https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2024/01/phoenix-man-arrested-making-online-death-threats-against-president-and

PHOENIX –David Michael Hanson, 41, of Phoenix, was arrested on Wednesday
for making online threats against the President and Vice-President.
Hanson was charged by Federal criminal complaint on Tuesday with five
counts of Threats Against the President and Successors to the Presidency
and five counts of Interstate Communication of Threats.

The complaint alleges that in November and December of 2023, while
living in Arizona, Hanson used a social media platform to post threats
to murder the President and Vice President of the United States. On
November 19, 2023, Hanson posted online a series of threatening
statements including one that stated, “#joeAndKamala I’m asking you to
resign on Monday your alternative is death brutally murdered.” After the
U.S. Secret Service spoke to Hanson and warned him that it was a Federal
crime to post such threats, on December 23, 2023, Hanson posted another
series of similar threats aimed at the President and Vice-President.

Each count of Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison, a fine of
up to $250,000, and up to three years of supervised release. Each count
of Interstate Communication of Threats carries a maximum sentence of
five years in prison, a fine of up to $250,000, and up to three years of
supervised release.

A complaint is simply a method by which a person is charged with
criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. An individual is
presumed innocent until evidence is presented to a jury that establishes
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The United States Secret Service is conducting the investigation in this
case. The United States Attorney’s Office, District of Arizona, is
handling the prosecution.


Those can be reported here:

https://tips.fbi.gov/home

https://www.justice.gov/action-center/report-crime-or-submit-complaint

https://www.secretservice.gov/contact

https://www.dhs.gov/see-something-say-something/reporting/california


Fellow citizens, won't you join in ending Rudey's terrorism here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Lil dwarf Rudey]

Post by Governor Swill
you're a chicken shit who has me killfiled

Governor Swill /Rudy Canoza/Lou Bricano/J Carlson/Michael A
Terrell/Chris Ahlstrom/Intelligent Party and a few dozen other socks wrote:

Multiple death threats against Trump:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path:
eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!netnews.com!s1-4.netnews.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx10.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
<ONIkO.102541$***@fx11.ams4> <***@185.151.15.190>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:38:43 -0400

Oh poor me I got shot at ...

Swill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Path:
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From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
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<***@185.151.15.160>
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otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:37:51 -0400


Cheer up, maybe someone else will try.

Swill

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: J Carlson <***@gmx.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: AP Lies by Ommission About Identity of Invaders Charged with
Rape, Murder of 12-Year-Old
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:35:52 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <v5f66o$1mps9$***@dont-email.me>
References: <v54h6j$39cuk$***@dont-email.me> <v54hrs$38mfs$***@dont-email.me>
<moKcnZP3dbqUm-***@giganews.com>
<v58c4f$6squ$***@dont-email.me>
<v5df1n$1caue$***@dont-email.me> <v5edju$1hv3p$***@dont-email.me>
<***@4ax.com>
<v5erpf$1jkrf$***@dont-email.me>
<O9acnRiefIZol-***@giganews.com>
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posting-account="U2FsdGVkX195k8uMNmZfnyDG9tQmsu21WqljX3bfQxM="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
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Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <O9acnRiefIZol-***@giganews.com>
Xref: news.eternal-september.org alt.politics.immigration:383549
alt.politics.nationalism.white:10913 talk.politics.misc:1295918
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:3024985

Post by Governor Swill
No. I am a patriotic American who wants the country and its people to

thrive. Getting rid of Trump permanently

Post by Governor Swill
is an important step to getting there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That constitutes a DEATH THREAT against a former President, Rudey:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/871
18 U.S. Code § 871 - Threats against President and successors to the
Presidency
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail
or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any
letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any
threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon
the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice
President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office
of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or
knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the
President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the
order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.
(b)The terms “President-elect” and “Vice President-elect” as used in
this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful
candidates for the offices of President and Vice President,
respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections
held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in
accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The
phrase “other officer next in the order of succession to the office of
President” as used in this section shall mean the person next in the
order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3,
United States Code, sections 19 and 20.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 740; June 1, 1955, ch. 115, § 1, 69
Stat. 80; Pub. L. 87–829, § 1, Oct. 15, 1962, 76 Stat. 956; Pub. L.
97–297, § 2, Oct. 12, 1982, 96 Stat. 1318; Pub. L. 103–322, title
XXXIII, § 330016(1)(H), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

9-65.200 - Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency; Threats Against Former Presidents; and Certain Other Secret
Service Protectees
The Counterterrorism Section of the National Security Division has
supervisory authority over 18 U.S.C. §§ 871 and 879 cases. As great
caution must be taken in matters relating to the security of the persons
protected by 18 U.S.C. § 871, United States Attorneys are encouraged to
consult with the Counterterrorism Section (CTS) of the National Security
Division when they have doubts on the prosecutive merit of a case. For
the same reason, dismissal of complaints under 18 U.S.C. § 871, when the
defendant is in custody under the Mental Incompetency Statutes (18
U.S.C. §§ 4244, 4246), requires approval from CTS. In other cases,
United States Attorneys must consult prior to dismissing a count
involving, or entering into any sentence commitment or other case
settlement involving a § 871 charge.


https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2024/01/phoenix-man-arrested-making-online-death-threats-against-president-and

PHOENIX –David Michael Hanson, 41, of Phoenix, was arrested on Wednesday
for making online threats against the President and Vice-President.
Hanson was charged by Federal criminal complaint on Tuesday with five
counts of Threats Against the President and Successors to the Presidency
and five counts of Interstate Communication of Threats.

The complaint alleges that in November and December of 2023, while
living in Arizona, Hanson used a social media platform to post threats
to murder the President and Vice President of the United States. On
November 19, 2023, Hanson posted online a series of threatening
statements including one that stated, “#joeAndKamala I’m asking you to
resign on Monday your alternative is death brutally murdered.” After the
U.S. Secret Service spoke to Hanson and warned him that it was a Federal
crime to post such threats, on December 23, 2023, Hanson posted another
series of similar threats aimed at the President and Vice-President.

Each count of Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison, a fine of
up to $250,000, and up to three years of supervised release. Each count
of Interstate Communication of Threats carries a maximum sentence of
five years in prison, a fine of up to $250,000, and up to three years of
supervised release.

A complaint is simply a method by which a person is charged with
criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. An individual is
presumed innocent until evidence is presented to a jury that establishes
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The United States Secret Service is conducting the investigation in this
case. The United States Attorney’s Office, District of Arizona, is
handling the prosecution.


Those can be reported here:

https://tips.fbi.gov/home

https://www.justice.gov/action-center/report-crime-or-submit-complaint

https://www.secretservice.gov/contact

https://www.dhs.gov/see-something-say-something/reporting/california


Fellow citizens, won't you join in ending Rudey's terrorism here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Rudy Canoza]

Post by Governor Swill

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
Venezuelan thugs - YES.

Oh, bullshit. The military budget always goes up. Obama was just one Democrat
who took heat from his far left wing for high military spending.
As for "trannies" and "thugs", still more hysterical right wing bullshit.
This playing on people's fears is getting old. Stop pretending you're going to
save them from some horrible social problem and come up the policy that will
solve the REAL problems people face every day.

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
sure there's much "better", but STILL .....
Oh, fixed the groups for you so it WILL go
to alt.politics.republicans as intended :-)

You're a stupid git. apr was never removed. Here's the list that Gronk got and
replied to.
sci.military.naval,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.republicans,Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.alt.politics.republicans,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc
As you can see, apr was *already in the list*. What you removed wasn't some
mysterious, embedded Usenet command, it was an invented newsgroup that some
troll put in way back. I routinely remove
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going. ... groups when I reply.
They also use several similar groups such as
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.alt.politics.democrats or
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to.talk.politics.guns

I'm the one who changes followups to
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to..., and I do it for a couple of very
good reasons. The first is that shitbag right-wingnuts, and *only* shitbag
right-wingnuts, are constantly cross-posting their vomit to newsgroups where it
is inappropriate and offensive, e.g. alt.computer.workshop and
comp.os.linux.advocacy. That vile neo-Nazi shitbag fainéant AlleyPussyBitch
constantly cross-posts his hate spew to can.politics. Canadians are
fundamentally decent people — far more decent than average Americans — and
there's no legitimate reason for that cocksucker to be going out of his way to
be offensive to them. So I /could/ just remove the inappropriate newsgroups from
my followups, but I much prefer to alter the newsgroups to let the shitbags like
AlleyPussyBitch know that my reply is not going to the groups they're trying to
pollute. And if you look at one of AlleyPussyBitch's replies to me, you can tell
that it *bugs* him when I do that.

The second reason I do it is that I use two Usenet providers (one paid, one
free), and if I'm not subscribed to all the newsgroups in the followups for both
providers, I can't send the post. So I could make all the subscriptions match,
*or* I could remove the newsgroups from the followups that are not common to
both sets of subscriptions, but then see point #1 above. I *like* offending vile
shitbags like AlleyPussyBitch.

Post by Governor Swill
Get a grip on reality, Numbers. You lost it today.
Too bad you're a chicken shit who has me killfiled; you might learn something
once in a while instead of continually reinforcing your own ignorance and
bigotry.
Oh. My. God.
MUST see this illusionist's magic trick. Turning a man into a dog on stage.
<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AvGVGeN9Mv8> (Video less than 60 seconds)
--
#NEVERtrump

[Lil dwarf Rudey]

Post by Rudy Canoza
I'm the one who changes followups to
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to..., and I do it for a couple
of very good reasons.

Governor Swill /Rudy Canoza/Lou Bricano/J Carlson/Michael A
Terrell/Chris Ahlstrom/Intelligent Party and a few dozen other socks wrote:

Multiple death threats against Trump:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path:
eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!netnews.com!s1-4.netnews.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx10.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
<ONIkO.102541$***@fx11.ams4> <***@185.151.15.190>
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Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:38:43 -0400

Oh poor me I got shot at ...

Swill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Path:
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From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
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otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:37:51 -0400


Cheer up, maybe someone else will try.

Swill

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: J Carlson <***@gmx.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: AP Lies by Ommission About Identity of Invaders Charged with
Rape, Murder of 12-Year-Old
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:35:52 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
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<moKcnZP3dbqUm-***@giganews.com>
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logging-data="1795977";
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posting-account="U2FsdGVkX195k8uMNmZfnyDG9tQmsu21WqljX3bfQxM="
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Xref: news.eternal-september.org alt.politics.immigration:383549
alt.politics.nationalism.white:10913 talk.politics.misc:1295918
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:3024985

Post by Rudy Canoza
No. I am a patriotic American who wants the country and its people to

thrive. Getting rid of Trump permanently

Post by Rudy Canoza
is an important step to getting there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That constitutes a DEATH THREAT against a former President, Rudey:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/871
18 U.S. Code § 871 - Threats against President and successors to the
Presidency
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail
or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any
letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any
threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon
the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice
President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office
of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or
knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the
President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the
order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.
(b)The terms “President-elect” and “Vice President-elect” as used in
this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful
candidates for the offices of President and Vice President,
respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections
held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in
accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The
phrase “other officer next in the order of succession to the office of
President” as used in this section shall mean the person next in the
order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3,
United States Code, sections 19 and 20.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 740; June 1, 1955, ch. 115, § 1, 69
Stat. 80; Pub. L. 87–829, § 1, Oct. 15, 1962, 76 Stat. 956; Pub. L.
97–297, § 2, Oct. 12, 1982, 96 Stat. 1318; Pub. L. 103–322, title
XXXIII, § 330016(1)(H), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

9-65.200 - Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency; Threats Against Former Presidents; and Certain Other Secret
Service Protectees
The Counterterrorism Section of the National Security Division has
supervisory authority over 18 U.S.C. §§ 871 and 879 cases. As great
caution must be taken in matters relating to the security of the persons
protected by 18 U.S.C. § 871, United States Attorneys are encouraged to
consult with the Counterterrorism Section (CTS) of the National Security
Division when they have doubts on the prosecutive merit of a case. For
the same reason, dismissal of complaints under 18 U.S.C. § 871, when the
defendant is in custody under the Mental Incompetency Statutes (18
U.S.C. §§ 4244, 4246), requires approval from CTS. In other cases,
United States Attorneys must consult prior to dismissing a count
involving, or entering into any sentence commitment or other case
settlement involving a § 871 charge.


https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2024/01/phoenix-man-arrested-making-online-death-threats-against-president-and

PHOENIX –David Michael Hanson, 41, of Phoenix, was arrested on Wednesday
for making online threats against the President and Vice-President.
Hanson was charged by Federal criminal complaint on Tuesday with five
counts of Threats Against the President and Successors to the Presidency
and five counts of Interstate Communication of Threats.

The complaint alleges that in November and December of 2023, while
living in Arizona, Hanson used a social media platform to post threats
to murder the President and Vice President of the United States. On
November 19, 2023, Hanson posted online a series of threatening
statements including one that stated, “#joeAndKamala I’m asking you to
resign on Monday your alternative is death brutally murdered.” After the
U.S. Secret Service spoke to Hanson and warned him that it was a Federal
crime to post such threats, on December 23, 2023, Hanson posted another
series of similar threats aimed at the President and Vice-President.

Each count of Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison, a fine of
up to $250,000, and up to three years of supervised release. Each count
of Interstate Communication of Threats carries a maximum sentence of
five years in prison, a fine of up to $250,000, and up to three years of
supervised release.

A complaint is simply a method by which a person is charged with
criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. An individual is
presumed innocent until evidence is presented to a jury that establishes
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The United States Secret Service is conducting the investigation in this
case. The United States Attorney’s Office, District of Arizona, is
handling the prosecution.


Those can be reported here:

https://tips.fbi.gov/home

https://www.justice.gov/action-center/report-crime-or-submit-complaint

https://www.secretservice.gov/contact

https://www.dhs.gov/see-something-say-something/reporting/california


Fellow citizens, won't you join in ending Rudey's terrorism here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Governor Swill]

Post by Rudy Canoza
Oh.no.this.most.certainly.is.NOT.going.to..., and I do it for a couple of very
good reasons.

You do it because you're an asshole. I, for one, would appreciate if you would
STOP fucking with headers and group lists. It's a lot easier to post when I
don't have to clean up after a fuckwit like you.

Get ONE nym, and use it, not a thousand others. And consider being polite and
not going off on some Tourette's fueled, spastic tantrum every time somebody
disagrees with you.


The couple next door recently made a sex tape. Of course, they don't know that
yet.

--
#NEVERtrump

[pothead]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
Venezuelan thugs - YES.

True statement.
Politicians begin the process of getting reelected the day after they win their current election.
The system is broken and career politicians like Bide, McConnell, Schumer and such are the reason
why.

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
sure there's much "better", but STILL .....

When it works, which is most of the time, it's the best system overall.

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
Oh, fixed the groups for you so it WILL go
to alt.politics.republicans as intended :-)

[[e-mail]]

Post by pothead

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
Venezuelan thugs - YES.

True statement.
Politicians begin the process of getting reelected the day after they win their current election.
The system is broken and career politicians like Bide, McConnell, Schumer and such are the reason
why.

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
sure there's much "better", but STILL .....

When it works, which is most of the time, it's the best system overall.

At the LOCAL levels it usually works quite well.

But closer to the top ... um ..... that's where
the real power-grubbing and bribery and sleazy
'deals' take over and the democratic paradigm
breaks down. The more top-heavy a State the more
damage this does.

The Libertarians would like to cut WAY back at the
top to help with this. Alas I think that paradigm
kind of expired in the mid 1800s. The rest of the
world, good AND bad, is too close now and 50 little
states running in circles ain't what we need anymore.
Some flavor of federalism kinda wins by default.

But as for SHIPS ... we need more ships and we need
more crew like RIGHT NOW. We can't seem to rally the
cash for the ships and can't seem to rally the
enthusiasm for a naval career anymore either.

This is where what I'd talked about comes in. The
use of many, smaller, ships - drones/rockets for
the most part with few or ANY human crew - might be
far more do-able. Makers of commercial ships -
fishing, cargo - can build 'em and they don't have
to be as tough because there'd be few/no humans to
protect.

In short, due to politics, social trends and not
being as rich as we were in the 50s, we have to do
a lot more with a lot less.

[Gunner Asch]

Post by pothead

Post by Gronk

Post by Skeeter
says...

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

What is the left going to do on "day one" that they can't do now?

Why didn't the magats do something day one eight
years ago?

    Because politicians, our 'leaders', DON'T DO SHIT
    unless it boosts their re-election bids. More money
    to the mil - NOT. More money for trannies and
    Venezuelan thugs - YES.

True statement.
Politicians begin the process of getting reelected the day after they win
their current election.
The system is broken and career politicians like Bide, McConnell, Schumer and
such are the reason
why.

    Plato commented on the problems with 'democracy'
    thousands of years ago. It CAN go totally bad.
    It's systemic, inherent to the paradigm. Not
    sure there's much "better", but STILL .....

When it works, which is most of the time, it's the best system overall.

  At the LOCAL levels it usually works quite well.
  But closer to the top

Top of *what*, you pseudo-sage dick-sucker?

... um ..... that's where
  the real power-grubbing and bribery and sleazy
  'deals' take over and the democratic paradigm
  breaks down. The more top-heavy a State the more
  damage this does.

There is *no* "democracy" at the top of a representative government, you
goddamned stupid Nazi pseudo-sage.

[snip pseudo-sage fuckwittery]

Shut the fuck up, Nazi pseudo-sage dick-sucker. Where the fuck do you get off
with this pose as some kind of vision-of-the-anointed pseudo-sage? You're not a
sage, asshole. You're a pompous, ignorant pseudo-sage blowhard. You don't know
your pimply flabby ass from your scrofulous florid face. Just shut the fuck up.
Read, but don't post. You have nothing to say.

[Governor Swill]

Rudy, post under one nym or STFU.

Please?


I can count the number of chain saw accidents I've had on the fingers of one
hand.

--
#NEVERtrump

[Governor Swill]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net
But closer to the top ... um ..... that's where
the real power-grubbing and bribery and sleazy
'deals' take over and the democratic paradigm
breaks down. The more top-heavy a State the more
damage this does.

I like reading your posts when they're accurate and insightful but this post is
neither and I can prove it with two words:

"Tammany Hall"


When people die and follow the light, they've already been reincarnated as a
moth.
--
#NEVERtrump

[Lil dwarf Rudey]

Post by Governor Swill
die and follow the light

Governor Swill /Rudy Canoza/Lou Bricano/J Carlson/Michael A
Terrell/Chris Ahlstrom/Intelligent Party and a few dozen other socks wrote:

Multiple death threats against Trump:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path:
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From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
<ONIkO.102541$***@fx11.ams4> <***@185.151.15.190>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846
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Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:38:43 -0400

Oh poor me I got shot at ...

Swill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Path:
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From: Governor Swill <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups:
talk.politics.misc,alt.politics,alt.politics.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.elections
Subject: Re: Triumphant Trump Photo After Assassination Attempt
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References: <***@earthlink.com>
<***@185.151.15.160>
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otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2024 10:37:51 -0400


Cheer up, maybe someone else will try.

Swill

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: J Carlson <***@gmx.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.nationalism.white,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: AP Lies by Ommission About Identity of Invaders Charged with
Rape, Murder of 12-Year-Old
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:35:52 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <v5f66o$1mps9$***@dont-email.me>
References: <v54h6j$39cuk$***@dont-email.me> <v54hrs$38mfs$***@dont-email.me>
<moKcnZP3dbqUm-***@giganews.com>
<v58c4f$6squ$***@dont-email.me>
<v5df1n$1caue$***@dont-email.me> <v5edju$1hv3p$***@dont-email.me>
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In-Reply-To: <O9acnRiefIZol-***@giganews.com>
Xref: news.eternal-september.org alt.politics.immigration:383549
alt.politics.nationalism.white:10913 talk.politics.misc:1295918
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:3024985

Post by Governor Swill
No. I am a patriotic American who wants the country and its people to

thrive. Getting rid of Trump permanently

Post by Governor Swill
is an important step to getting there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That constitutes a DEATH THREAT against a former President, Rudey:


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/871
18 U.S. Code § 871 - Threats against President and successors to the
Presidency
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail
or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any
letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any
threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon
the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice
President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office
of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or
knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the
President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the
order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect,
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years,
or both.
(b)The terms “President-elect” and “Vice President-elect” as used in
this section shall mean such persons as are the apparent successful
candidates for the offices of President and Vice President,
respectively, as ascertained from the results of the general elections
held to determine the electors of President and Vice President in
accordance with title 3, United States Code, sections 1 and 2. The
phrase “other officer next in the order of succession to the office of
President” as used in this section shall mean the person next in the
order of succession to act as President in accordance with title 3,
United States Code, sections 19 and 20.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 740; June 1, 1955, ch. 115, § 1, 69
Stat. 80; Pub. L. 87–829, § 1, Oct. 15, 1962, 76 Stat. 956; Pub. L.
97–297, § 2, Oct. 12, 1982, 96 Stat. 1318; Pub. L. 103–322, title
XXXIII, § 330016(1)(H), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

9-65.200 - Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency; Threats Against Former Presidents; and Certain Other Secret
Service Protectees
The Counterterrorism Section of the National Security Division has
supervisory authority over 18 U.S.C. §§ 871 and 879 cases. As great
caution must be taken in matters relating to the security of the persons
protected by 18 U.S.C. § 871, United States Attorneys are encouraged to
consult with the Counterterrorism Section (CTS) of the National Security
Division when they have doubts on the prosecutive merit of a case. For
the same reason, dismissal of complaints under 18 U.S.C. § 871, when the
defendant is in custody under the Mental Incompetency Statutes (18
U.S.C. §§ 4244, 4246), requires approval from CTS. In other cases,
United States Attorneys must consult prior to dismissing a count
involving, or entering into any sentence commitment or other case
settlement involving a § 871 charge.


https://www.secretservice.gov/newsroom/releases/2024/01/phoenix-man-arrested-making-online-death-threats-against-president-and

PHOENIX –David Michael Hanson, 41, of Phoenix, was arrested on Wednesday
for making online threats against the President and Vice-President.
Hanson was charged by Federal criminal complaint on Tuesday with five
counts of Threats Against the President and Successors to the Presidency
and five counts of Interstate Communication of Threats.

The complaint alleges that in November and December of 2023, while
living in Arizona, Hanson used a social media platform to post threats
to murder the President and Vice President of the United States. On
November 19, 2023, Hanson posted online a series of threatening
statements including one that stated, “#joeAndKamala I’m asking you to
resign on Monday your alternative is death brutally murdered.” After the
U.S. Secret Service spoke to Hanson and warned him that it was a Federal
crime to post such threats, on December 23, 2023, Hanson posted another
series of similar threats aimed at the President and Vice-President.

Each count of Threats Against the President and Successors to the
Presidency carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison, a fine of
up to $250,000, and up to three years of supervised release. Each count
of Interstate Communication of Threats carries a maximum sentence of
five years in prison, a fine of up to $250,000, and up to three years of
supervised release.

A complaint is simply a method by which a person is charged with
criminal activity and raises no inference of guilt. An individual is
presumed innocent until evidence is presented to a jury that establishes
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The United States Secret Service is conducting the investigation in this
case. The United States Attorney’s Office, District of Arizona, is
handling the prosecution.


Those can be reported here:

https://tips.fbi.gov/home

https://www.justice.gov/action-center/report-crime-or-submit-complaint

https://www.secretservice.gov/contact

https://www.dhs.gov/see-something-say-something/reporting/california


Fellow citizens, won't you join in ending Rudey's terrorism here?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[[e-mail]]

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

Well, US presidents are not god-emperors ... they
have to get OTHER branches of gov to go along with
the program .....

And yes it DID go to alt.politics.republicans
ya smelly little WokieCom ........

[Governor Swill]

Post by ***@ud0s4.net

Post by Gronk
Twenty five year low? Eight years of Bush, four
of #FelonDon... They did nothing? Aren't they
sposeta be big on this stuff?

Well, US presidents are not god-emperors ... they
have to get OTHER branches of gov to go along with
the program .....

Not if Trump has his way.

Heave ho
<https://www.gocomics.com/mikeluckovich/2024/08/14>


--
"Of all the things that I hated about my childhood, nothing
compared to the revolving door of father figures." -- JD Vance

#NEVERtrump